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After all this years Latency is still the problem not bandwidth


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#1 just-

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 02:10 AM

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It’s Still the Latency, Stupid…pt.1
Filed under: Networks, General — bill @ 7:00 am

Buy This Book!One concept that continues to elude many IT managers is the impact of latency on network design. 11 years ago, Stuart Cheshire wrote a detailed analysis on the difference between bandwidth and latency ISP links. Over a decade later, his writings are still relevant. Latency, not bandwidth, is often the key to network speed (or lack thereof).

I was reminded of Cheshire’s article and the underlying principles recently when working on an international WAN design. What Cheshire noted was that light signals pass through fibre optics at roughly 66% of the speed of light, or 200*10^6 m/s. Regardless of the equipment or protocols you use, your data cannot exceed that theoretical limit. This limit equals the delay between when a packet is sent, and when it is received, aka latency.

In the US, we tend to focus on bandwidth and carrier technology when ordering circuits, completely ignoring latency. For instance, when choosing between cable and DSL for your house do you ever ask the carrier for its latency SLA? Maybe you should. Using a cable connection a ping to www.google.com in Mountain View, CA from my house (137 KM) yields an average ping time (aka round-trip time or RTT) of 73ms. The theoretical latency for this distance (round trip) is 1.37ms meaning my cable connection is roughly 50 times worse than the theoretical limit. No surprise that Comcast focuses on bandwidth and not latency in its marketing.

Cable and DSL circuits in the US are generally not business class and do not carry any service level agreement (SLA) on latency or availability. Businesses who use these circuits for business critical services do so at their peril. Business circuits such as Frame Relay and MPLS do generally include latency SLAs, but understanding the difference between the SLA and your actual experience can have a massive impact the performance of your network. For instance, let’s say a carrier advertises a 55ms round trip SLA in the US. This SLA equals the maximum latency between any two points of presence (POP) on their network.

The coast-to-coast distance in the US is roughly 5,000KM for a theoretical latency of 50ms, so a 55ms RTT SLA is pretty good. But that doesn’t mean packets on your network will only take 55ms to cross the country. When designing your WAN you must also account for the latency added by your network equipment and your servers, and the distance between the carrier’s POP and your offices. As a result, a well designed US WAN will still experience 75-80ms ping times. A poorly designed WAN can experience much worse times.

Now consider creating an international WAN. In this case, you typically will receive multiple SLAs from the carrier for different parts of the network. For instance, when designing an MPLS connection between California and the UK, the SLAs would be approximately 55ms within the US plus 75ms to cross the Atlantic Ocean plus 21ms to connect within the UK. Add the latency of your network and you get ping times of 175ms to 200ms.

At this point you are probably asking yourself “so what?” Two tenths of a second is no big deal. The answer is the impact of latency on TCP windowing. Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) has a flow control mechanism that senses latency and bandwidth between two hosts and determines the rates which data will be transferred. The TCP window is the amount a unacknowledged data a sender can transmit before waiting for a TCP ACK. As the latency increases, the TCP window shrinks, meaning the sender sends less data before waiting for an ACK. This helps reduce the amount of data that will need to be retransmitted in case a packet gets lost. Smaller windows equals more packets, and more packets equals more data because each packet carries the overhead of a 40 byte TCP/IP header regardless of if the payload is 1 byte or 1500 bytes.

The result is what I call the “Sandbag Problem.” Let’s say the two of us are trying to fill sandbags. My job is to scoop sand into a container and hand the full container to you (data). Your job is to empty the container into a sandbag and hand the empty container (ACK) back to me. Occasionally you drop the container so I have to fill it again (Retransmit). If we were standing next to each other, the time it takes for me to hand the container to you, have you empty it, and hand it back to me (latency) would be very small. Now imagine there is a 6′ wall between us, and I need to hand the container over to you.

The wall changes several aspects of our filling operation. First, the size of the container must be smaller because I cannot lift the same weight over my head that I can lift at waist level. Second, the time to complete one cycle would increase because it takes longer to lift the container 6′ than it does 3′. Third, you would drop more containers so retransmissions would increase. As the wall gets taller, the problem gets worse. If the wall were 10′ tall, we would be throwing containers instead of lifting them, so they would need to be even smaller. The containers would be traveling 20′ round trip instead of 12′ so the delay would increase 75%. And we would need to send a lot more containers to move the same amount of sand.

TCP works just like the sandbag problem. As distance increases, the TCP window shrinks, the time between transmission and acknowledgement increases, and the number of packets required to move the data grows. One reason for this is the effect of TCP congestion avoidance algorithms on the window size. The result is that the effective “speed” of the link decreases exponentially as the distance increases, regardless of bandwidth. RFC 1323 TCP Extensions for High Performance provides for mechanisms to deal with part of this problem. One method is to tune the TCP window on your hosts based upon a calculation of Bandwidth Delay Product (BDP). BDP = bandwidth x delay. Example: A 2Mb/s E1 link between California and the UK would have a BDP of 2.048Mb/s x 200ms = 51,200 Bytes. This is the ideal TCP window to fill the pipe so that the sender is not sitting idle waiting for ACK packets. Most hosts have a TCP Window default size of 64KB so, in this scenario, no adjustments would be needed. But, if the connection were a 45Mb/s DS3, then the BDP would be almost 1,100KB. In this scenario, TCP windows would need to be adjusted to use the available bandwidth at peak efficiency.

For most network applications, anything over 100ms latency is noticeable to your end users. Time sensitive applications such as VOIP or video teleconferencing suffer the worst experience when delay is introduced. Added to this is the impact of jitter. Jitter is the delay caused when packets travel alternative paths to the destination, and either arrive out of order, or with varying intervals between them. Applications such as e-mail that are bursty and not time sensitive do not feel the impact of latency to the same degree. How much of a problem is this for you today? One way to measure latency on your network is to use your carrier’s looking glass tools. A list of major looking glasses may be found at: http://www.nanog.org...kingglass.html.

When designing for latency in a WAN it is important to first understand the applications on the network. After the applications have been profiled, steps can be taken to mitigate the impact of network delay. In part 2 of this article, we will discuss methods of designing for latency mitigation.
Source:http://www.edgeblog.net/2007/its-still-the-latency-stupid/

i found this a very interesting read as i am very much into networking
i hope you guys enjoy it as much as i do

Recommended Download

#2 Siryak

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:22 AM

Arg...Believe me I know the effects of latency. :cry:

Pinging yahoo.com [216.109.112.135] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1626ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1417ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1718ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1603ms TTL=44

Ping statistics for 216.109.112.135:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 1417ms, Maximum = 1718ms, Average = 1591ms
:buck2:

#3 PeePs

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:27 PM

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Pinging yahoo.com [216.109.112.135] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1626ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1417ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1718ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1603ms TTL=44

Sweet Lincoln's mullet that is just disgusting, get that sick stuff out of these forums  :laugh:

JK!

#4 Siryak

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:00 PM

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Sweet Lincoln's mullet that is just disgusting, get that sick stuff out of these forums  :laugh:

JK!

I can see how it could be scaring to someone not accustomed too something so tragic. Hell it scars me and I put up with it everyday.

#5 PeePs

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:16 AM

i take it online gaming is completely out of the question for you?

#6 just-

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:23 AM

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Arg...Believe me I know the effects of latency. :cry:

Pinging yahoo.com [216.109.112.135] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1626ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1417ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1718ms TTL=44
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=1603ms TTL=44

Ping statistics for 216.109.112.135:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 1417ms, Maximum = 1718ms, Average = 1591ms
:buck2:

dude what connection have u got and who on earth were u pinging ?

#7 Conuck

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:37 AM

He has  Wildblue Communications, Inc.  Here is mine with cable.


Pinging yahoo.com [216.109.112.135] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=35ms TTL=52
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=37ms TTL=52
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=38ms TTL=52
Reply from 216.109.112.135: bytes=32 time=36ms TTL=52

Ping statistics for 216.109.112.135:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 35ms, Maximum = 38ms, Average = 36ms

#8 Siryak

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:51 AM

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i take it online gaming is completely out of the question for you?

I can play Internet checkers on a good day. :cry:

Coknuck your going to make me cry. You got room for one more?

#9 Conuck

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 12:00 PM

If I could share it with you I would! :cool:

#10 Siryak

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 12:05 PM

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If I could share it with you I would! :cool:

Lol for a little while. If you have ever seen how I am on a hotels internet whenever I am away from home you might think differently. :twisted: Lets just say that I download from the time I get there until the time I leave lol. I foam at the mouth occasionally. :cheesy:

#11 Conuck

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 12:08 PM

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Lol for a little while. If you have ever seen how I am on a hotels internet whenever I am away from home you might think differently. :twisted: Lets just say that I download from the time I get there until the time I leave lol. I foam at the mouth occasionally. :cheesy:

:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

#12 just-

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 03:18 PM

LOL

withdrawn when u leave the hotel and the fast internet world

i know what that is

#13 resopalrabotnick

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 03:48 PM

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dude what connection have u got and who on earth were u pinging ?
the problem is he isn't pinging on earth alone, he is also pinging 22300 miles into space and back...

#14 Siryak

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 07:29 PM

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the problem is he isn't pinging on earth alone, he is also pinging 22300 miles into space and back...

Yah, but that only accounts for about 500ms of the latency. The rest is in the POS traffic shaping software. I used to have pings average in the high 500s before they switched traffic shaping policies.

#15 notmybest2day

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 01:41 AM

I know from experience that cable is faster than DSL in terms of latency.  I'm on Comcast and I get this for google pings:
PING google.com (64.233.187.99) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=1 ttl=243 time=23.3 ms
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=2 ttl=243 time=23.9 ms
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=3 ttl=242 time=22.2 ms
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=4 ttl=242 time=23.8 ms
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=5 ttl=242 time=23.9 ms
64 bytes from jc-in-f99.google.com (64.233.187.99): icmp_seq=6 ttl=242 time=22.5 ms

--- google.com ping statistics ---
6 packets transmitted, 6 received, 0% packet loss, time 5020ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 22.269/23.315/23.992/0.687 ms
Friend of mine lives three houses up the street from me but is on BellSouth DSL and gets a 137ms average.  One thing to note is that I'm on the East coast, and that IP address is on the west coast, so we're talking about 3,500 miles.  Also, traceroute (tracert on Windows) shows that as being 15 hops away.

Now since all of you are pinging yahoo, I should as well.
PING 216.109.112.135 (216.109.112.135) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 216.109.112.135: icmp_seq=1 ttl=48 time=40.2 ms
64 bytes from 216.109.112.135: icmp_seq=2 ttl=48 time=40.9 ms
64 bytes from 216.109.112.135: icmp_seq=3 ttl=48 time=39.5 ms
64 bytes from 216.109.112.135: icmp_seq=4 ttl=48 time=39.5 ms
64 bytes from 216.109.112.135: icmp_seq=5 ttl=48 time=41.4 ms

--- 216.109.112.135 ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 received, 0% packet loss, time 4014ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 39.563/40.358/41.425/0.771 ms
Doesn't look too bad.  This one is also on the opposite coast, and is at least 16 hops away (goes to * * * starting with 17).

Bottom line is Cable > DSL, and not just in bandwidth.

#16 Voltageman

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 06:48 AM

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dude what connection have u got and who on earth were u pinging ?
I think he was pinging the rovers on Mars  :haha:

#17 Siryak

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 08:33 AM

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I think he was pinging the rovers on Mars  :haha:

I am driving the rover right now! OMG! I see a little green man! Why that little...You bring my rims back! I'll get you! :tickedoff:

#18 NobleScarlet

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 08:54 AM

This is a ping test from Zamboanga City, Philippines (way south in the philippines)

PING google.com (64.233.187.99): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 64.233.187.99: icmp_seq=0 ttl=237 time=304.4 ms
64 bytes from 64.233.187.99: icmp_seq=1 ttl=237 time=309.0 ms
64 bytes from 64.233.187.99: icmp_seq=2 ttl=237 time=303.6 ms
64 bytes from 64.233.187.99: icmp_seq=3 ttl=237 time=313.6 ms
64 bytes from 64.233.187.99: icmp_seq=4 ttl=237 time=298.2 ms
--- google.com ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 298.2/305.7/313.6 ms


PING yahoo.com (66.94.234.13): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 66.94.234.13: icmp_seq=0 ttl=50 time=243.8 ms
64 bytes from 66.94.234.13: icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=247.6 ms
64 bytes from 66.94.234.13: icmp_seq=2 ttl=50 time=247.2 ms
64 bytes from 66.94.234.13: icmp_seq=3 ttl=49 time=241.6 ms
64 bytes from 66.94.234.13: icmp_seq=4 ttl=50 time=249.3 ms
--- yahoo.com ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 241.6/245.9/249.3 ms

#19 resopalrabotnick

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 09:25 AM

my brains latency will always be higher than my connections so i don't really care.

#20 xs1

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 11:24 AM

Microsoft Windows XP [Versión 5.1.2600]
© Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:Documents and SettingsN&K>ping yahoo.com
Access is denied.

C:Documents and SettingsN&K>



i win





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