24 replies to this topic

[CA3LE]

I want to build iOS and Android apps for TestMy... but I still don't get it.  Why use an app for something that can be done through the browser?  Is it that hard to type "testmy.net" --- hell, in many cases you can just type "testmy"... why waste your local resources?  Let my server run most of the program for you.  ...am I missing something?  Am I getting too old to get it?

Do people like having a bunch of crap they need to update all the time?  I just hope that the world realizes one day that you don't need apps... AT ALL... FOR ANYTHING. (except offline)  That goes for personal computers as well.  Everything can be done through the browser, especially more so in the future.

I'm trying my hardest to design this website to just run in any web browser and I'm constantly evolving the program.  If you're looking for a speed test app for your Android or iOS device you'd do better to just open your default web browser and bookmark testmy.net... easy as that.  Nothing to download, no security permissions to mess with and updates are transparent.  

So please, let's open this for discussion.  Why waste your disk space?  If you can sell me on the idea of why TestMy needs a mobile app, I'll build it.  Seriously. --- Think about this first, the benefit of having apps versus a website in many cases is the offline ability they have... what's the point of a speed test app if you're not online.   

... come on, sell me... I dare you.

- CA3LE

[TriRan]

i can't really think of any off the top of my head

[tdawnaz]

what's an app??

[mudmanc4]

TriRan, on 06 October 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

i can't really think of any off the top of my head

tdawnaz, on 06 October 2011 - 03:59 AM, said:

what's an app??

Two innovators in a row , great ,at least my comment does not have to be all that good to rise up   Teasing relax

Screw the app, why not think on the terms you already are. Look , in a case where your looking to test throughput , you  want to get a more "real" idea of what your network looks like right, so opening an app really is self defeating by using possible resources to obtain a more accurate result.

Think on the lines of creating something along the lines of a test icon , linking to the proper page / test for the specific device. Embed the user agent in the specific result from the requested client. Might be a lick speedier then having it done server side. Then again that creates an issue of it's own , too many devices. Many long coding nights.

[dlewis23]

CA3LE, on 05 October 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

I want to build iOS and Android apps for TestMy... but I still don't get it.  Why use an app for something that can be done through the browser?  Is it that hard to type "testmy.net" --- hell, in many cases you can just type "testmy"... why waste your local resources?  Let my server run most of the program for you.  ...am I missing something?  Am I getting too old to get it?

Because it can be done in a native app better. With a native app you have access to more resources and more API's then you do in a browser. For you, having direct access to the devices network connection API not through the browser will allow for a more accurate speed test. Having the ability to skip the browser makes a big difference because now your not dependent on slow mobile device browser that really can't process much information compared to a desktop computer.

Also since you have direct access to these API's you can know what type of connection the user is on WiFI, 4G LTE, 3G, Edge ect. ect. and you can taylor how the speediest runs depending on the users connection.

The next benefit is your not limited to the browser and load times so you can do what ever you want with the UI and its not going to effect the speed test results. You can build a stunning UI with as many animations and types of animations you want. Show results in real time with out effecting the speedtest result.

The way you have the test setup now I have to wait for my results. This isn't a doctors office, why do I have to wait for my results? Build a native app and I don't have to wait. I can see them in real time.

You also have page refreshes right now, several of them if you do and upload & download test. People hate waiting for a page to load this is why HTML5/Javascript apps on the desktop are so popular no more waiting for the page to refresh.

With native app no more refreshing, you can do a download and upload test every time with a seamless transition from the download test to the upload test.

CA3LE, on 05 October 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

I just hope that the world realizes one day that you don't need apps... AT ALL... FOR ANYTHING. (except offline)  That goes for personal computers as well.  Everything can be done through the browser, especially more so in the future.

Except that day is not today or tomorrow or next week or even next year. Running something through the browser is a least 10 times slower then running native code. Also the browser does not have access to even 5% of the API's that are available to native apps.

Remember WebOS? They tried to run everything through the browser and failed. Mostly because the browser is just too slow for running apps and you really can't do a lot of the stuff you can do with native code.

CA3LE, on 05 October 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

Do people like having a bunch of crap they need to update all the time?

Why waste your disk space?

Well IDK about Android but in iOS5 everything gets updated automatically in the background. And even so updates have never been a problem for people since the device tells you an update is available and there is a update all button that people just tend to push and let the updates happen on there own.

And as for disk space it really doesn't waste much of any disk space. My latest iPad app with a ton of high quality images is only 9.7 MB. If I really wanted to I could get that down to about 6.5 - 7 MB but I don't want to loose any bit of quality in the images because I can see the difference.


Remember this, people hate websites on iPhones and Android devices they are more likely to go to the App Store and find something they want then browser the web for something on there phone.

If you built a good speedtest app you would have 100,000 new users in a month.

[TriRan]

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Because it can be done in a native app better. With a native app you have access to more resources and more API's then you do in a browser. For you, having direct access to the devices network connection API not through the browser will allow for a more accurate speed test. Having the ability to skip the browser makes a big difference because now your not dependent on slow mobile device browser that really can't process much information compared to a desktop computer.

Also since you have direct access to these API's you can know what type of connection the user is on WiFI, 4G LTE, 3G, Edge ect. ect. and you can taylor how the speediest runs depending on the users connection.

The next benefit is your not limited to the browser and load times so you can do what ever you want with the UI and its not going to effect the speed test results. You can build a stunning UI with as many animations and types of animations you want. Show results in real time with out effecting the speedtest result.

The way you have the test setup now I have to wait for my results. This isn't a doctors office, why do I have to wait for my results? Build a native app and I don't have to wait. I can see them in real time.

You also have page refreshes right now, several of them if you do and upload & download test. People hate waiting for a page to load this is why HTML5/Javascript apps on the desktop are so popular no more waiting for the page to refresh.

With native app no more refreshing, you can do a download and upload test every time with a seamless transition from the download test to the upload test.





Except that day is not today or tomorrow or next week or even next year. Running something through the browser is a least 10 times slower then running native code. Also the browser does not have access to even 5% of the API's that are available to native apps.

Remember WebOS? They tried to run everything through the browser and failed. Mostly because the browser is just too slow for running apps and you really can't do a lot of the stuff you can do with native code.



Well IDK about Android but in iOS5 everything gets updated automatically in the background. And even so updates have never been a problem for people since the device tells you an update is available and there is a update all button that people just tend to push and let the updates happen on there own.

And as for disk space it really doesn't waste much of any disk space. My latest iPad app with a ton of high quality images is only 9.7 MB. If I really wanted to I could get that down to about 6.5 - 7 MB but I don't want to loose any bit of quality in the images because I can see the difference.


Remember this, people hate websites on iPhones and Android devices they are more likely to go to the App Store and find something they want then browser the web for something on there phone.

If you built a good speedtest app you would have 100,000 new users in a month.

can be the same thing for androids, mostly anywho

as far as the app is concerned i've thought of a reason, you wouldn't have to worry about some sort of browser add on, (i don't know if the iOS browser can do that... but android browsers can) interfering with testing results and or possibly caching the test. also as dlewis pointed out its advertising you'll get more and more users visiting the site and you can embed small ad's aswell as have links to the forum etc to help link people directly to the site

[CA3LE]

Lots of good points...

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

The next benefit is your not limited to the browser and load times so you can do what ever you want with the UI and its not going to effect the speed test results. You can build a stunning UI with as many animations and types of animations you want. Show results in real time with out effecting the speedtest result.

We're testing your internet... not showing you fireworks... stunning graphics get in the way of the test more than anything you've described.. native or not, it's a waste of resources.  Why?  So it can look pretty.  That's the furthest concern from my mind...

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

The way you have the test setup now I have to wait for my results. This isn't a doctors office, why do I have to wait for my results? Build a native app and I don't have to wait. I can see them in real time.

If you're waiting it's because of the page loads in between things right now... I'll explain in the next section...

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

You also have page refreshes right now, several of them if you do and upload & download test. People hate waiting for a page to load this is why HTML5/Javascript apps on the desktop are so popular no more waiting for the page to refresh.

With native app no more refreshing, you can do a download and upload test every time with a seamless transition from the download test to the upload test.

Easily solved with more development... development time that I think is better spent on the web application.  ...work in some AJAX. Problem solved.  ... It's not like its even a problem right now.  Seriously, how long do you wait for your results page.... if it takes THAT long then you're getting to see a SECOND benchmark while you wait for something to load that shouldn't take more than a second.    Even when I'm on the shittiest connections the results load instantly for me, so I really don't know what you're talking about there.

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Remember WebOS? They tried to run everything through the browser and failed. Mostly because the browser is just too slow for running apps and you really can't do a lot of the stuff you can do with native code.

Yeah, I remember that poorly executed genius idea that came too far ahead of its time... yeah I know what you're talking about.  We are on a TOTALLY different infrastructure now.  Once symmetrical fiber is commonplace ALL BETS ARE OFF.  Video games, graphics editing... I don't care what it is.  You'll still be able to compute locally but WHY?  If you can do the same thing with nothing more than a input device and monitor. If you think I'm wrong... read this in 5 years.

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well IDK about Android but in iOS5 everything gets updated automatically in the background. And even so updates have never been a problem for people since the device tells you an update is available and there is a update all button that people just tend to push and let the updates happen on there own.

And as for disk space it really doesn't waste much of any disk space. My latest iPad app with a ton of high quality images is only 9.7 MB. If I really wanted to I could get that down to about 6.5 - 7 MB but I don't want to loose any bit of quality in the images because I can see the difference.


Remember this, people hate websites on iPhones and Android devices they are more likely to go to the App Store and find something they want then browser the web for something on there phone.

If you built a good speedtest app you would have 100,000 new users in a month.

Updates can be pretty annoying on Android... unnecessary in the digital world I envision.  As for space, you're right.  My point to talking about hard drive space is why waste ANY of your resources when you don't have to... that's an extra MP3 or a 50 pictures

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Remember this, people hate websites on iPhones and Android devices they are more likely to go to the App Store and find something they want then browser the web for something on there phone.

Since when do people hate websites on iPhone and Android?  NO NO NO.. you've got it WAY wrong... people hate websites that don't view or or work correctly on those devices.  I'm sorry but I'm personally in my browser 100X more than apps.  I search the internet before the market or app store.   --- There are obviously people out there that think differently from me but my question is... if websites worked better, would they still seek out the market or app store?

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

If you built a good speedtest app you would have 100,000 new users in a month.

That's true... but why not just build a really bad ass web application... then encapsulate it within a lightweight app that renders the browser?  If exposure is the only real benefit...

... I just want to make sure my time gets spent in the right areas.  I don't want to have 100 different versions out there... I want ONE unified website.  Not a website an two apps, which would surely yield different results from each other... that's not a benchmark.

[TriRan]

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's true... but why not just build a really bad ass web application... then encapsulate it within a lightweight app that renders the browser?  If exposure is the only real benefit...

... I just want to make sure my time gets spent in the right areas.  I don't want to have 100 different versions out there... I want ONE unified website.  Not a website an two apps, which would surely yield different results from each other... that's not a benchmark.

i like where your going with this

[tdawnaz]

now i don't pretend to understand any of this...but help me...

so if you test using an app on your phone and it doesn't use your phones browser to connect to the test...wouldn't that be kinda like doing a speedtest from your isp's server??...much faster but not so accurate unless you only dl/ul within your own phone/isp's server?

[TriRan]

well, not exactly but it will be less accurate because it won't be within real world circumstances so it would be a lot like doing a test from a site like speedtest.

[dlewis23]

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

We're testing your internet... not showing you fireworks... stunning graphics get in the way of the test more than anything you've described.. native or not, it's a waste of resources.  Why?  So it can look pretty.  That's the furthest concern from my mind...

Except people don't like things to look like its 1999 anymore.

If you design it properly it doesn't get in the way it actually enhances the experience because you can show users things in a way that looks good but they can understand were just text suffocates the experience.

Figure out how to make a beautiful interface that doesn't get in the way (and you can actually do this) and people will use your app more. I've got a lot of hands on experience with this, in the latest update to one of my apps I improved the UI a lot, didn't change anything else and now I'm making 4 times as much on app sales and the app is getting used 8 times as much. All because I made the UI better.

For you, making a stunning looking website should be #2 on your list just after test accuracy. The UI is what the user sees and interacts with. If it looks like its from 1999 they will use your app/site like its 1999

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

If you're waiting it's because of the page loads in between things right now... I'll explain in the next section...


Easily solved with more development... development time that I think is better spent on the web application.  ...work in some AJAX. Problem solved.  ... It's not like its even a problem right now.  Seriously, how long do you wait for your results page.... if it takes THAT long then you're getting to see a SECOND benchmark while you wait for something to load that shouldn't take more than a second.    Even when I'm on the shittiest connections the results load instantly for me, so I really don't know what you're talking about there.

I'm not really talking about page loads i'm talking about when you start a test all you see is a progress bar. I have to wait for progress bar then the results page. That would be great for 2005 but its 2011 people want real time results. They want to see the results for the connection instantly from when they push start.  

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

Since when do people hate websites on iPhone and Android?  NO NO NO.. you've got it WAY wrong... people hate websites that don't view or or work correctly on those devices.  I'm sorry but I'm personally in my browser 100X more than apps.  I search the internet before the market or app store.   --- There are obviously people out there that think differently from me but my question is... if websites worked better, would they still seek out the market or app store?

Since always. Apple tried to do the mobile app thing it didn't work out to well even for them. Mobile apps are slower, they can't do a 10th what a native app can do. And they are all very basic.

I don't care how much better you make mobile websites, they aren't going to be even remotely close to being able to do what a native app can do anytime soon.

There is a reason why I didn't build a mobile website for my sites and instead built an app.

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yeah, I remember that poorly executed genius idea that came too far ahead of its time... yeah I know what you're talking about.  We are on a TOTALLY different infrastructure now.  Once symmetrical fiber is commonplace ALL BETS ARE OFF.  Video games, graphics editing... I don't care what it is.  You'll still be able to compute locally but WHY?  If you can do the same thing with nothing more than a input device and monitor. If you think I'm wrong... read this in 5 years.

Having a fast enough connection is only half the problem. The other half if the browser it self. Browsers are insanely slow at executing code. Thats why web apps are still fairly basic in the type of apps you can have in a web browser. They get faster at it all the time with every new version but they are a long way off from being even remotely close to how quickly native code can be executed.

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's true... but why not just build a really bad ass web application... then encapsulate it within a lightweight app that renders the browser?  If exposure is the only real benefit...

Been there. Done that. Trust me it doesn't work.

It goes back to the fact that the browser is way too slow. A user will start the app and now has to wait. Because they have to wait for web-kit to initialize, then load the page your telling it to load and then if you have to click anything you have to again wait for the page to load.

It's not the way to do an app.

CA3LE, on 06 October 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

... I just want to make sure my time gets spent in the right areas.  I don't want to have 100 different versions out there... I want ONE unified website.  Not a website an two apps, which would surely yield different results from each other... that's not a benchmark.

So do what I did. Build an API. Then everyone is running of the same basic code base on the server and the only thing that is different is the front end on the App and website.

As the person who has the #1 iPad Speedtest app. By not having a dedicated app for TMN your missing out on a lot of faces your Logo could be in front of. As well as a lot of money.

TriRan, on 06 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

well, not exactly but it will be less accurate because it won't be within real world circumstances so it would be a lot like doing a test from a site like speedtest.

That is actually incorrect. It will be more accurate to what your connection is actually doing. Since phones and tablets have really low power CPUs they are unable to max a connection above a specific point this number becomes even less when you add the browser into the factor since the browser engine is really slow.

Just for example the iPhone 3G was only able to get about 5.5 Mbps in the browser no matter how much faster your connection was. But if you ran a native app you could get to about 9 Mbps and thats what the phone was actually able to pull from the wifi connection. The slow CPU combined with the slower browser engine caused inaccurate results.

Since most things that use the internet connection of a phone or tablet are done outside of the browser, the result you get in the browser would be inaccurate to what you are really seeing in the real world.

[TriRan]

dlewis23, on 06 October 2011 - 03:42 PM, said:

Except people don't like things to look like its 1999 anymore.

If you design it properly it doesn't get in the way it actually enhances the experience because you can show users things in a way that looks good but they can understand were just text suffocates the experience.

Figure out how to make a beautiful interface that doesn't get in the way (and you can actually do this) and people will use your app more. I've got a lot of hands on experience with this, in the latest update to one of my apps I improved the UI a lot, didn't change anything else and now I'm making 4 times as much on app sales and the app is getting used 8 times as much. All because I made the UI better.

For you, making a stunning looking website should be #2 on your list just after test accuracy. The UI is what the user sees and interacts with. If it looks like its from 1999 they will use your app/site like its 1999






I'm not really talking about page loads i'm talking about when you start a test all you see is a progress bar. I have to wait for progress bar then the results page. That would be great for 2005 but its 2011 people want real time results. They want to see the results for the connection instantly from when they push start.  






Since always. Apple tried to do the mobile app thing it didn't work out to well even for them. Mobile apps are slower, they can't do a 10th what a native app can do. And they are all very basic.

I don't care how much better you make mobile websites, they aren't going to be even remotely close to being able to do what a native app can do anytime soon.

There is a reason why I didn't build a mobile website for my sites and instead built an app.





Having a fast enough connection is only half the problem. The other half if the browser it self. Browsers are insanely slow at executing code. Thats why web apps are still fairly basic in the type of apps you can have in a web browser. They get faster at it all the time with every new version but they are a long way off from being even remotely close to how quickly native code can be executed.





Been there. Done that. Trust me it doesn't work.

It goes back to the fact that the browser is way too slow. A user will start the app and now has to wait. Because they have to wait for web-kit to initialize, then load the page your telling it to load and then if you have to click anything you have to again wait for the page to load.

It's not the way to do an app.



So do what I did. Build an API. Then everyone is running of the same basic code base on the server and the only thing that is different is the front end on the App and website.

As the person who has the #1 iPad Speedtest app. By not having a dedicated app for TMN your missing out on a lot of faces your Logo could be in front of. As well as a lot of money.






That is actually incorrect. It will be more accurate to what your connection is actually doing. Since phones and tablets have really low power CPUs they are unable to max a connection above a specific point this number becomes even less when you add the browser into the factor since the browser engine is really slow.

Just for example the iPhone 3G was only able to get about 5.5 Mbps in the browser no matter how much faster your connection was. But if you ran a native app you could get to about 9 Mbps and thats what the phone was actually able to pull from the wifi connection. The slow CPU combined with the slower browser engine caused inaccurate results.

Since most things that use the internet connection of a phone or tablet are done outside of the browser, the result you get in the browser would be inaccurate to what you are really seeing in the real world.

how is that a real world circumstance though? the cpu and browser are factors for download speeds even on a phone aren't they? i'm pretty sure thats why this site exists. so you can know your actual speed not some fictional well if everything was perfect you'd get this. if you want to stroke your e-peen more be my guest there are plenty of flash based tests for that

that's my personal opinion

[dlewis23]

TriRan, on 06 October 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

how is that a real world circumstance though? the cpu and browser are factors for download speeds even on a phone aren't they? i'm pretty sure thats why this site exists. so you can know your actual speed not some fictional well if everything was perfect you'd get this. if you want to stroke your e-peen more be my guest there are plenty of flash based tests for that

that's my personal opinion

Its a real world circumstance because 90% of the internet data thats used on a mobile device (iPad, iPhone, Android phone/tablet etc.) is not done in the browser and does not use the browser engine to do the download.

Example. If your on a iPad and you stream a movie from say Netflix your not actually steaming that file using the browser. If you go to Youtube on Android or iOS it doesn't use the browser  to steam the video. Open any application on Android or iOS that pulls data from a server and it does not use the browser to download the data unless the developer was specifically to load a web view.

So if 90% of the time I'm not actually using the browser to grab data from a server why would I want to do a speedtest in a browser thats going to give me an in accurate result?

I want to do a speedtest that uses the same method every other app is using to download data. Thats how you get an accurate real world result because it uses the same method the real world is using.

[TriRan]

Actually I don't use the youtube app I go to the webpage. I think your assuming everyone does what you do however your points are still valid

[dlewis23]

TriRan, on 07 October 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Actually I don't use the youtube app I go to the webpage. I think your assuming everyone does what you do however your points are still valid

Even if you go to Youtube.com on iOS or Android it doesn't use the browser to stream/download the video. The OS takes over when you click on the video and uses the standard player built into the OS which uses a simple HTTP request to get the video.

The only way it would ever use the browser would be if you had Flash playing the video.

[TriRan]

dlewis23, on 07 October 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:

Even if you go to Youtube.com on iOS or Android it doesn't use the browser to stream/download the video. The OS takes over when you click on the video and uses the standard player built into the OS which uses a simple HTTP request to get the video.

The only way it would ever use the browser would be if you had Flash playing the video.

i do have flash playing the video... i'm not using an iphone or a blackberry it doesn't launch the video in a video player or the youtube app... it loads up flash right in my browser and plays the video and then states this video is not optimized for mobile use

[dlewis23]

TriRan, on 07 October 2011 - 10:56 AM, said:

i do have flash playing the video... i'm not using an iphone or a blackberry it doesn't launch the video in a video player or the youtube app... it loads up flash right in my browser and plays the video and then states this video is not optimized for mobile use

Right since you have flash it will use that in the browser for the download. If you didn't use flash to play the video it will use the standard video player built into Android which does not use the browser for the stream.

[TriRan]

dlewis23, on 07 October 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Right since you have flash it will use that in the browser for the download. If you didn't use flash to play the video it will use the standard video player built into Android which does not use the browser for the stream.

actually all the times i've not had flash installed it just comes up as a blank object even if i tap on it, it won't do anything

[AlucardHS]

the site works fine for me but i wouldn't mind a sexy Testmy.net app for WP7.5

[CA3LE]

TriRan, on 07 October 2011 - 11:23 AM, said:

actually all the times i've not had flash installed it just comes up as a blank object even if i tap on it, it won't do anything

I'm now also showing a form field that you can cut it from by hand if flash isn't available... failsafe option.

AlucardHS, on 07 October 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

the site works fine for me but i wouldn't mind a sexy Testmy.net app for WP7.5

I should have some apps in 2012... going to be allot of work though.