California set to test broadband over power lines

[ROM-DOS]

The California Public Utilities Commission this week gave a boost to the idea of delivering broadband access over power lines by passing rules allowing trials to take place across the state. Though broadband over power lines (BPL) is a wonderful idea in theory, in practice it has been difficult to implement well. Has its time finally come?

I can only hope for a significant price drop or am I just dreaming?

[resopalrabotnick]

i've said it once and i'll say it again. internet over power lines (or any net, for that matter) is stupid, stupid, stupid.

the frequency ranges impinged on by this are huge. the signal spreads from the untwisted, non-paired transmission lines like from a ginormous antenna. ham radio, commercial and emergency services, air traffic control are all in the frequency band usually affected.

in austria a provider using internet via powerline has been warned to cease all interference. any further reports of interference will result in fines.

while the idea sounds good in principle and may be feasible technically, the problem that the lines used for transmission are not in the least bit designed to not broadcast the signal transmitted on them makes it impossible to operate problem free.

[ROM-DOS]

yeah, well . . .call me a dreamer!

Maybe, the most exciting thing about the technology is not its speed, but the ease with which an alternative nationwide broadband delivery system could be created. This possibility is certainly on the minds of the members of the California Public Utilities Commission, which said in a statement:

"BPL has the potential to bring broadband Internet services to communities who do not have broadband service available today from the telephone companies or cable companies. In fact, in other communities that already have DSL and cable modem service BPL can provide a third broadband 'pipe' to customers, thereby increasing competition and consumer choice," said PUC President Michael R. Peevey.

[resopalrabotnick]

gee golly. i never would have thought that someone from the public utilities commission would be pushing that product. 

i'm sure that as soon as they go operational and the emergency services can't use their radios anymore (along with the ham operators) he will be educated on stray transmissions.

[tommie gorman]

Maybe an alternative to at least let the others know that they are not the only ones in the game. 

Could have at least a little effect on the price of the others. 

Competition is always good. 

[resopalrabotnick]

yes competition is good and all that. but do you want to get that competition at the cost of jamming a broad spectrum? besides, the areas in question only have power and phone lines to them, the phone lines are too long for dsl and there is no cable because it is just not worth laying cable there. so powerline would be the only option.

[massey]

I just dont think people in general would be real crazy about hooking up there computer knowing that the service is comming any where near a power line. Even if it was explaned I still think most would want to avoid it.

[Roco]

here in the UK, a bright spark    has sugested broadband through the gas pipes,trials are going ahead,   

[resopalrabotnick]

here in the UK, a bright spark    has sugested broadband through the gas pipes,trials are going ahead,   

that sounds remarkably useful. since you have the gas pipes going all over the damned place anyway (in those places that get supplied with gas of course) they offer a great way to lay some fiber/tp/coax without having to dig everything up. simply use existing maintenance/inspection openings to shoot in the fiber. Brilliant!

(and even if there is a spark there's no danger of a fire. they are gas lines not gas/air mixture lines.)

[Roco]

Hi Reso. yeah the UK has got good gas supply, and it woull save the usual chaos of digging up the roads, yeah I appreciate the the no explosion part

It just made everyone laugh in the UK, but technically a brilliant Idea,

especially for me, as I am limited to 1Mb dsl, due to distance from tel co (BT)

I am on the amazing 256/128 Kb for the time being,   

   

[tommie gorman]

yes competition is good and all that. but do you want to get that competition at the cost of jamming a broad spectrum? besides, the areas in question only have power and phone lines to them, the phone lines are too long for dsl and there is no cable because it is just not worth laying cable there. so powerline would be the only option.

That is me. 

That is why I have satelite.

Might be a cost effective alternative.

I wonder what the speeds and monthly $ would be.

[resopalrabotnick]

some good info on powerline.

http://glasnost.itcarlow.ie/~net4/kirwans/bband.html

note the allowable radio interference under side effects.

attached an australian study on powerline systems.

[jypagan]

I wonder is this will be faster than Dway if it is I guess a lot of people will be making the jump

[resopalrabotnick]

depends on how many people on one trunk. they have 54 mbit, so anything over 50 users on a trunk gets slowed down below 1 mbit down, but the pings should be better.

there is no justification however for jamming the airwaves.

[tommie gorman]

Good info resopalrabotnick, thanks.

A couple of good things. Voip,internet, and T.V.

It is hoped it will be possible to have devices such as home entertainment systems and other household appliances will also be placed on this data network and allow services such as viewing streamed media and web browsing from televisions. It is hoped that services such as VOIP will be offered allowing this technology to compete not only with ISPs but also with existing Telco?s.

Out in the country where I am, I only share with one neighbor on my transformer.(assuming that is where the modem goes). Further reading states that it is dependant upon the users of the sub-station. I hope they do not go for the wifi setup!

So substation, 45Mbps / 50 users,(only if all use) could actually get full 45Mbps at a slow time. WOW.

And not everybody D/L's at the same time. Hmm interesting.

Not sure about the 200 Mbps of the Opera Goals?

And no 45,000 mile jet lag! 

Look out Dway, you better straighten up!

[resopalrabotnick]

i agree that the features are fine. but the radio interference? 

[tommie gorman]

In lamens terms what does that exactly mean? 

  "radio interference"

[resopalrabotnick]

tommie, read or at least scan the pdf i posted.

radio interference in this case refers to the fact that the powerline transmissions are in the up to 3 MHz range, similar to cable internet. the difference is that while dsl, cable and other wired high speed connections are shielded like coax or prevent interference by using twisted pair and shielded twisted pair cabling.

powerline internet runs at a fairly high power level over single unshielded power lines that act as antennas that are miles long. this means that they have the ability to spread their transmission over a wide range of the spectrum not just from a point source but over a large area. i recommend that for details you look at the report, or ask a friend that has a ham radio if you want to hear a rant...

some of the data in there is significant

from point 1.5 

There is a gulf of some 60dB (or a million times) or more between interference power levels

that may be acceptable to radiocommunications users and the interference power levels

radiated from BPL systems.

even more so is the following passage.

commenting on existing legislation governing radio interference in point 4.3.1

Note that these standards were developed long before an interference source of the nature of

BPL was practical. The standards were envisaged for point-source radiators where the

WIA review of PLC/BPL December 2004

[tommie gorman]

I read it, I just did not understand it. I thought it meant something to the effect of radio transmissions over the wires or something.

I am just too technical in this area. And if it were to come here or something, I actually just wanted to know what was up. I understand it a little better from your simplifying it a little. But it still reads as a doctor's script. Thanks 

[resopalrabotnick]

well, actually your point about radio transmission over the wire is well made. so is cable internet. but there it's shielded. on powerline, the line catches all the noise from surrounding radio transmissions and other sources, creating a high noise level on the line. the useful signal has to be stronger than that to be read. (obviously) this means that because the line isn't shielded it also transmits that signal as a radio signal into the environment, meaning it far surpasses any existing interference in the area.

[tommie gorman]

Would it be too expensive to go and shield the pre-existing lines? Maybe.

Say like a raincoat or shrink wrap. Just trying out ideas. 

[resopalrabotnick]

just rubbercoating them wouldn't be enough. you'd have to shield them like a coax line. and then you'd have the problem of the lines getting too hot. the one advantage of unshielded/insulated overland lines is good cooling.

[tommie gorman]

So they would need a radio shield that was ventilated, sort of. I would guess. I hope I am on the right track now.

[resopalrabotnick]

probably. except that if you bother shielding the powerlines you might as well put that effort into laying fiber and coax and setting up a decent cable network...

[tommie gorman]

Well at least it is their $ and not mine. Maybe they have a few ideas up their sleeve. Guess we will find out.