Mustang GT vs. Pontiac firebird

[Forsaken]

Here is a nice T/A.  Almost 400 (AT THE WHEELS!) 14k pretty cheap

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500496

Good looking red T/A 35k miles 15k

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464494

My Thoughts...

1) No real difference between the SS/WS6 and the Z28/TA.  Other than appearance, they both perform nearly the same.

2) LS1 5.7liter engines kick out some serious hp.  When my car was pretty much stock; I went with a bunch of buddys who were in a Mustang club.  I only had headers, catback, and an improved air induction lid.  I dynoed at 342hp/353tq at the wheels while alot of the Mustangs GTs and Mach1s with comparable mods put down anywhere from 250-315ishhp at the rear wheels.  Forget all of the rated horse magazine bs, these are real numbers to the road, not flywheel hp #s.

3) Cheap to fix, cheap to modify (errr cheaper than other cars to modify).  I put down about 2grand in mods, lid, exhaust,intake, stall converter, and was running low 12s (with a 1.6 60' time) with better tires possibly better (maybe 11s possible).  No small feat with no internal motors touched, i.e. a cam (easy swap), or heads (a difficult swap).  Oh yeah, i weigh alot b/c its convertible.

4)  Should you decide to go with a Camaro or TA.  I suggest an automatic if you like dragracing.  They generally do better for comparable mods.  Beware tho, you need a stall converter if you wanna do any random street racing, 20-25mph is the deadspot for the autos.  But if you are the man jamming the gears, get a manual. 

If you want a solid cheap platform, go with the LS1 F-Body line (99-02).  It has THE EXACT same engine as Corvette (non Z06), the only reason vettes tend to do better is b/c it weighs less. 

As with all cars, it depends on how the car was treated, its condition, and how you do your maintenance.  Oh btw, the only mustangs I ever had a problem with were the 03+ Cobras (a 20k+ car), thankfully some of the owners cant drive.  Its nice to know I spent about 14k on a nice car that I can put sideways at 40mph. 

[CA3LE]

Lemme put it this way,  wat is the fastest and badest car i can get for 12000?

If I had a budget of 12K and I wanted a car that would whoop the crap out of just about everything I would shop around for an RX-7 turbo that has a little bit of work done to it -- with just a few minor mods they break into the high 12's low 13's very easy -- and they look SWEEET  -- http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mazda/1995/RX-7/  --  Only problem with that car is that it has a really cramped leg room.  When I have driven them I've felt crowded and I'm only 5' 11" 165lbs (that was wearing a pair of DM Boots though).  You can tell that the leg room was designed for little Asians, the pedals are nearly on top of each other and they are really thin... although it's a little cramped it is however really good for some good 'ol heal-toe action for the turns.  That is a seriously sweet ride.

Also on my list would be (by the way, the prices listed are the prices when the cars were new of course... you can find them in the 12K range now... just not really pimped out ones)

• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mitsubishi/1999/3000GT_VR-4/
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mitsubishi/1997/Eclipse_GS-X/ (minor tuning will easily turn this into a 13 sec car.. I have friends with 1st gen versions of this car that run 9's and 10's -- and they have some of their work done with duct tape... haha, but these always have problems after 60K mi)
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Porsche/1988/944_Turbo/ (sick ass car, and if you look real hard you can find a fairly clean one for that price)
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Nissan/1996/300ZX_Twin-Turbo/
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Nissan/1999/Silvia_S15_Spec-R/ (you'll never find one.. but you can convert a 240SX with an engine swap --- buy the 240 for like 3-4K and put about 8-10K into it and you'll have a car that will blow the doors off any stock muscle car)
  
• 
  
  

and as I said before my old EVO -- http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mitsubishi/2003/Lancer_Evolution/ -- but it's not in that price range... but look at how fast it is (even when it's stock) -- The last race I had in that puppy at the track was against a 525+hp 2004 Mustang SVT Cobra and I beat him by 3/10th of a second in the 1/4 - the guy was so amazed that after the race he stopped and looked under my hood and BS'd with me for like 30 minutes... his son kept saying "you got lucky.. you got lucky.. this is over 525hp" and then the father admitted "Actually, that's the best time I've ever personally ran.. good race."

My point is.. if you haven't noticed by the trend of the cars that I have shown you... Turbo cars tear up muscle cars... for less money   -- but if you want something that has style AND is a smaller turbo car that even the muscle car crowd will give you praise for.. get an '88 Porsche 944 Turbo -- they look great, handle 1000's better than ANY mustang, camaro or firebird and they will blow the doors off even a brand new GT mustang -- and that shit came out in 1988 --- AND not only all of that, you will look like your the rich kid in any late 80's teen movie   - -haha

Muscle cars sound cool and feel cool, and muscle car guys always say "There is no replacement for displacement" (meaning that a bigger engine will always win)... but I'm sorry, there is a replacement for displacement...... it's called TECHNOLOGY --- LATER!

-D

p.s. another long post on this subject... I always get so worked up about cars.. I love them so much!

[resopalrabotnick]

hm, speaking of rocket on wheels, tommie gave me an idea there. ever watch the mythbusters epsiode with the JATO car?

they took an old beater and strapped a few rockets to the roof. model rocket engines actually, i think it was 1500 lbs thrust for 30 seconds each with 3 of them on there. a pound of thrust will translate roughly into 2 hp. so if you take your beater and then install some model rocketry kit you can pretty much win any race...

but seriously. for 12 grand. either go with something cheaper and economical, something cute and fun to drive or build it yourself.

how about hunting down a mini (the classic one, not that pos new bmw one) and doing work on that? in its day the thing was a feared road race and rally car. sure, it had little grunt, but the thing also weighs less than your average turd so you can make it go fast just by popping in an extra rubber band. or look at british sports cars/roadsters. there's some awesome stuff out there.

[tommie gorman]

Chevy, choke.

If you want chevrolet, and want to build cheap. Get you an old Monza Spyder (mini Camaro on a Vega chassis) shove in what ever you would in a Camaro and have fun. They will hold a V-8 motor and drive train very easily.

Chevy's are cheap to build. here are a couple of pics to compare the looks.

Just some thoughts.

[amc11890]

Pre made or built to order by your self?

I am in process of building a 1967 Fairlane with a present 289 auto.($2550) I then purchased a 1970 LTD with a 429 and all goodies to boot. ($299)radiator, springs, posi rear )

Put those togather for under $5000 total.

It really depends on you. 

What do you want in a car?

For $12,000, you can build a 4 wheel rocket on wheels, you know what I mean. 

It would prob be pre made.  I basically want a fast car that sounds cool.  I started off with ford and chevy because all i was focused on was the engine size and nothing else.  No im kinda lookin into some mitsubishis and nissans.  NOt really sure wat i want right know but it must be fast and have a automatic tranny for now,  maybe in the future i will learn how to drive manual.

[justinlay]

You could always get a Ford GT LOL!!!!!!!!! :haha:

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/Ford+GT/0/F664F312-5D59-4A67-897E-9511BFD719DB.htm

[resopalrabotnick]

hit a salvage yard or swap meet. pick up an old beater for 500 bucks. invest whatever neccessary to make it more or less safe (maybe 1 or 2 grand) then another 2 grand in nitrous and other upgrades. if you blow up the engine after a few races with nitrous so what? you still have 7 grand left to get you a decent daily driver and got all that youthful enthusiasm out of your system for a while.

[tommie gorman]

got all that youthful enthusiasm out of your system for a while.

WTF are you talking about? I never did! And pushing 48 in a couple of weeks. Neither did Jay Leno. Priorities just get in the way sometimes.  :haha:

Heck even coknuck gets in a race once in a while! 

[dlewis23]

got all that youthful enthusiasm out of your system for a while.

thats something that no guy ever looses.

[Forsaken]

Also on my list would be (by the way, the prices listed are the prices when the cars were new of course... you can find them in the 12K range now... just not really pimped out ones)

• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mitsubishi/1999/3000GT_VR-4/
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mitsubishi/1997/Eclipse_GS-X/ (minor tuning will easily turn this into a 13 sec car.. I have friends with 1st gen versions of this car that run 9's and 10's -- and they have some of their work done with duct tape... haha, but these always have problems after 60K mi)
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Porsche/1988/944_Turbo/ (sick ass car, and if you look real hard you can find a fairly clean one for that price)
  
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Nissan/1996/300ZX_Twin-Turbo/
  
• http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Nissan/1999/Silvia_S15_Spec-R/ (you'll never find one.. but you can convert a 240SX with an engine swap --- buy the 240 for like 3-4K and put about 8-10K into it and you'll have a car that will blow the doors off any stock muscle car)
  
• 
  
  

A good 12k Camaro SS/Z28 or a T/A can beat everysingle one of those cars. As for handling... I gotta say one thing..

Sam Strano-Owner Strano Performance Parts

2 time SCCA Solo2 National Champion

2002 SCCA ProSolo Series National Champion

He drives a Z28 and these are recent victories. And he doesnt have any crazy work done, basically konis, springs, swaybars, panard bar, and different lowercontrol arms. The trap that alot of f-body guys fall into is, they go buy QA1 drag shocks, and set thier suspension up for insane 60ft times.

My little SS that runs LOW 12s with boltons and deep 11s with a 150 shot of nitrous (injectors only), is more than enough for 99 percent of encounters on the street.

[amc11890]

A Camaro SS is comparible to a pontiac firebird formula or Trans Am?

[Forsaken]

yup

[dlewis23]

A Camaro SS is comparible to a pontiac firebird formula or Trans Am?

yeah, they are basically the same thing.

[amc11890]

*thread resurrected*

As you guys already know i love fast cars.  I have been looking around at the prices of these cars and i am probably get or camaro/firebird.  Yeah a muscle car.  I have also considered the rx-7 but my dad is encouraging a ford or chevy(not a jap car)  He is just remembering all his glory days when all he bought was pure muscle.  there are over a 100 camaros/firebirds for sale within 25 miles of my house and they are cheap.  But I have a few questions: i have heard in many cases that the older lt's are are more reliable and last a lot longer. is that a myth?  Also the trans am and the camaro are basically the same car but which one do you think looks better(the 4th gen models)?

[tommie gorman]

i had a 70 Chevelle which threw the rear driveshaft u-joint 75 miles from the nearest town. I was not worried at all. I just packed up, stuck my thumb out and went to the nearest town and came back and changed it. Newer cars require too much to fix. After 1972 cars got complicated in the engine dept. Older ones not as modern were also much simpler, and parts are everywhere. And not near as expensive. My preference is old or new. And prior to 1972 about all that is required is a PCV valve for emissions. Much cheaper and simpler.

RX-7's are fairly fast, they rev very high, with their rotary engines. Been known to hit 10,000 on the street, and will eat a Datsun Z alive.

What is (the 4th gen models)?

[amc11890]

The 4th gen models were from 1993-2002(camaro and firebird is wat i was referring to)

IMO they are both good looking cars

[cholla]

And prior to 1972 about all that is required is a PCV valve for emissions. Much cheaper and simpler.

tommie;The hell with the PCV valve don't get a car with anything but a road draft tube.   

amc11890;Tell your dad you want this one below.If he'll cover what you can't. 

[dlewis23]

amc11890;Tell your dad you want this one below.If he'll cover what you can't. 

:haha: that will go over real well when he asks for that.

[cholla]

Heres the one in the pic on Ebay.I think it qualifies as a musclecar.So your dad should be happy to take care of the difference in price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bentley-2006-BUGATTI-VEYRON-16-4-8-0L-W16-1001HP-MSRP-100K-YOU-CHOOSE-COLOR-OPTIONS-110-MONEY-BACK-GUARANTEE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6118QQihZ002QQitemZ4653941706QQrdZ1

Here are some specs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

Heres some stuff from the official Bugatti site

this is pretty cool

http://www.bugatti-configurator.com/bugatti_en.html

http://www.bugatti-cars.de/bugatti/index.html

[tommie gorman]

Actually cholla I will have to stand behind the pcv as the only good emmissions part ever installed on a car. They removed lower crankcase pressure and lightened up the pressure on the lower side of the rotating assembly. And removed some of the blow-by.

Or is that what the road-draft tube did also?

[cholla]

tommie gorman ;I was just rattling your chain.The road draft performed the same function as the PCV valve.That is what engines used to vent crankcase pressure before the pcv valve probably 1961 or so back.

[amc11890]

Heres the one in the pic on Ebay.I think it qualifies as a musclecar.So your dad should be happy to take care of the difference in price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bentley-2006-BUGATTI-VEYRON-16-4-8-0L-W16-1001HP-MSRP-100K-YOU-CHOOSE-COLOR-OPTIONS-110-MONEY-BACK-GUARANTEE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6118QQiHz002QQitemZ4653941706QQrdZ1

Here are some specs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

Heres some stuff from the official Bugatti site

this is pretty cool

http://www.bugatti-configurator.com/bugatti_en.html

http://www.bugatti-cars.de/bugatti/index.html

is that now the fastest street legal car?

[cholla]

amc11890: I'm not sure if its the fastest now.I'm sure the Fererri would be close & maybe a few others.

[deerkill10]

It sounds to me like you are a young fella.  If I was you for 12k I would buy a cheap late 80-90 mustang with a 6 cyl.  insure it then build it. you can do this with a camero or firebird.  So ya aint paying 3k a year in insurance.

[RAINMAKA]

not sure if the veyron is the fastest but the koenigsegg ccx is definitely up there