Legalalities

[Dragonwrtr]

I just have a question for those of you who are blaming dishnetwork/wildblue...have you read the agreements and disclaimers? legal.dishmail.net has all the contract rights and disclaimers and state rather clearly in my point of view (not that it counts for much since I don't have wildblue myself) that the speeds will vary and are not guaranteed. Also for those trying to use the wildblue system as a phone section 10.4 states it's not to be used as a primary telecommunications services IE` life line or phone service, so where are people so confussed?

[zalternate]

Sorry about the long post but contracts are an interesting thing to tear apart. 

Some interesting parts in that agreement. But how many people actually read the fine print anyways. It's that false advertising that hooks people in and then all sorts of S#!t hits the fan when full details of the non-guaranteed and heavily limited service come to light. Most people are not programmed to read "legalize" or drill down many pages into a website for full details and can not understand what the actual meaning of the document is.

"In the event that you did not receive all 5 pages of this agreement, Do not sign this agreement. Some reviews report installers will quickly just have the customer sign the signing portion "at the end of the install" and get grumpy if the customer wastes their time reading the whole document.

"You acknowledge that an owners manual or similar material was provided to you....."   Once again a customer could of signed and not gotten the manual.

Section 10.1 is the big one to note. It pretty well says the service may not work and the customer can still keep on paying for a service that does not work.

And if someone from WildBlue tells you something, well that information is bogus and not to be taken as something to fix the problems with the WildBlue system.

"Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of an implied warranty" Many have had their States Attorneys either fix problems or get the contract null and voided, due to being unfair to the consumer.

Section 10.2 Would seem to infer that if your service dies and you call in and they don't fix it for months, you can get your monthly fee's back for the time past the original call of non-working service.

Actually section 10.4 is a general disclaimer for system maintenance. Which unfortunately is not pre-announced to customers. And with the DAMA controls on the system, phone service for the most part will not work anyways. But what the agreement actual says is" The service shall not be used as you primary or 'life line' tele-communications service". That would be construed as email or instant messages and possibly some type of phone service that may kind of work on the system.

Section 10.6 Is interesting. Who is this "Us"? "The provisions of this agreement are for the benefit of Us, WildBlue and our respective....." So wheres the consumer protection in this contract with this section being in here? Does the consumer not have any rights in this contract?

Section 11.2 The U.S. mail notification or even email. Unless there is confirmation of a person receiving the document. That sent document is void unless confirmation of receipt is confirmed. Thats how court summons work.

And people can also not be expected to go to the website on a daily basis to see if there are any changes in the agreement.

Section 11.4 This one is always interesting and Judges are now voiding entire contracts due to it. "If any term of the agreement is found by a court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable, it shall be construed in such a way, as to eliminate the offending aspects, while still giving as much effect as possible to the intension's of such term" Now what this means is that if parts of the contract are illegal and anti-consumer, then the company just rewrites that portion to comply with actual laws or even removes that section. But Judges are finding that to be not good enough anymore and are voiding the entire contracts that are designed to screw the customer and make millions for the company,while providing spotty service.

Xplornet Internet services in Canada actual has a line in their agreement that says "4. USE OF SERVICE: You are prohibited from using the Service and......" They know about it and have not fixed it.  So anyone using the service is violating the agreement. It should read something like... "4. USE OF SERVICE: You are prohibited from using the Service for and as well shall....."

[generallee76]

  I understand that there will be times that the network does not work, due to weather in your location or the earth station.  I pay for 1.0mbps download and 200Kbps for upload.  I understand there will be times its slower but less than 1/2 the stated speed??  Thats crazy, I need the internet to do what I do for Veterans.  What I don't understand that is, it was stated that the Dishnetwork/Wildblue system is overloaded buy their call center and they are still selling service???????I have been told this by their reps when I have called in.  I stopped calling in because its the same stuff all the time.  I am not STUPID, I understand the system when you are overloaded, than you should work to reverse the problem.  Its not my problem its theirs.  I am not trying to cause trouble I am just trying to get a better understanding of why and when will they correct the problem.  One more question if you are a Wildblue tech, put yourself in my shoes.  Would you feel good paying for Dish's Gold level and at night your down load speeds are ALWAYS below 500kbps or lower..  I could understand a drop but thats abit much. would you not say????  All is ask is would someone with Dish/Wildblue LOOK INTO THIS CONSTANT PROBLEM.  Thank you

[compuguybna]

TWO beams cover TN for Wildblue.  One covers the Nashville surrounding area and one covers the Knoxville area I believe.

The one in Nashville was so overcrowed with so many angry people getting less than 200kbps, that they

FINALLY closed that beam to new installs (something they should have done a while back). they will NEVER admit their service is overloaded, NEVER.  and when you DO complain, you get the script "SPEEDS are NOT guaranteed".

Even when you call tech support, its always the same "scripted" solutions. Run a few speed tests, reset the modem, reboot

the pc.......If you manage to get transferred BEYOND first level tech support, then it becomes a REAL troubleshooting process, but RARELY with any results.

Wildblue consistently blamed my pc for my slow performance.  HOGWASH!  I have a new HP pc.

Ironically, I am on HUGHESNET now, and I have **NO** performance issues, period. I maintain about 1.5 mbps 24/7.

and download the heck out of data during 2am to 7am.

Something else I noticed.... Five houses (including me at the time) had Wildblue.....AMAZINGLY, weeks later We've all

got HUGHESNET dishes...

Write the Better Business Bureau of DENVER if you are dis-satisfied with Wildblue (wildbluz)

  I understand that there will be times that the network does not work, due to weather in your location or the earth station.  I pay for 1.0Mbps download and 200Kbps for upload.  I understand there will be times its slower but less than 1/2 the stated speed??  Thats crazy, I need the internet to do what I do for Veterans.  What I don't understand that is, it was stated that the Dishnetwork/Wildblue system is overloaded buy their call center and they are still selling service???????I have been told this by their reps when I have called in.  I stopped calling in because its the same stuff all the time.  I am not STUPID, I understand the system when you are overloaded, than you should work to reverse the problem.  Its not my problem its theirs.  I am not trying to cause trouble I am just trying to get a better understanding of why and when will they correct the problem.  One more question if you are a Wildblue tech, put yourself in my shoes.  Would you feel good paying for Dish's Gold level and at night your down load speeds are ALWAYS below 500Kbps or lower..  I could understand a drop but thats abit much. would you not say????  All is ask is would someone with Dish/Wildblue LOOK INTO THIS CONSTANT PROBLEM.   Thank you

[generallee76]

Thank you for the response.  I just may make a complaint to the BBB in Denver Co..  Its too bad Dish and Wildblue can't just be honest.

[compuguybna]

  http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/internet-access-providers/wildblue-communications-inc-in-greenwood-village-co-9036631

I'd write FIRST to their corporate office ...

[email protected].

Ken Carroll is the CEO.

BBB processed a total of 1242 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 1242 complaints closed in 36 months, 387 were closed in the last year.

[compuguybna]

Actually ordering satellite internet thru DISH NETWORK (or at&t) is really a bad move. Because its Wildblue's service anyway.....

While your email address might be [email protected], its STILL WILDBLUE that is providing the service.

DISH and AT&T are just re-sellers of Wildblue.. They are just getting a cut from Wildblue to market their service.

Its just like DSL from Earthlink a few years ago.  It was DSL from BELLSOUTH, Earthlink just got $$$ for marketing it.

I **almost** ordered Wildblue from DISHNETWORK, Glad I didn't.  I didn't want internet issues to have to be associated

with my TV account (since I've NEVER had any issues with DISH).

So, you have WILDBLUE to thank for any issues, not DISH.

Thank you for the response.  I just may make a complaint to the BBB in Denver Co..  Its too bad Dish and Wildblue can't just be honest.

[generallee76]

  I thank you for the reply.  I have written to the COE at Dish about the service with a 2 week tally of my speeds.  This was done about 1 yr ago.  I NEVER HEARD A WORD FROM ANYONE AT DISH OR WILDBLUE since,  NOT A WORD.. I am now looking at Hughs, I have NO other choice where I live.  Thank you   here it is 8:21pm and Im down to 487kbps download.....

[compuguybna]

you SHOULD complain, and use that email address at wildblue....

Also, try complaining in their forums.

www.wildblueworld.com/forum

I got more results writing the BBB.

Looking pretty good here on HUGHESNET.  i'm on the 1.6mbps plan, and getting close to that @ 8:33pm

:::.. testmy.net test results ..:::

Download Connection is:: 1525 Kbps about 1.53 Mbps (tested with 1536 kB)

Download Speed is:: 186 kB/s

Upload Connection is:: 224 Kbps about 0.2 Mbps (tested with 386 kB)

Upload Speed is:: 27 kB/s

Tested From:: https://testmy.net (Main)

Test Time:: 2009/06/03 - 7:30pm

D-Validation Link:: https://testmy.net/stats/id-ZIP9BM4Q8

U-Validation Link:: https://testmy.net/stats/id-P8Z6F9C1K

User Agent:: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0; Trident/4.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; FDM) [!]

[Shug7272]

Sorry about the long post but contracts are an interesting thing to tear apart. 

Some interesting parts in that agreement. But how many people actually read the fine print anyways. It's that false advertising that hooks people in and then all sorts of S#!t hits the fan when full details of the non-guaranteed and heavily limited service come to light. Most people are not programmed to read "legalize" or drill down many pages into a website for full details and can not understand what the actual meaning of the document is.

"In the event that you did not receive all 5 pages of this agreement, Do not sign this agreement. Some reviews report installers will quickly just have the customer sign the signing portion "at the end of the install" and get grumpy if the customer wastes their time reading the whole document.

"You acknowledge that an owners manual or similar material was provided to you....."   Once again a customer could of signed and not gotten the manual.

Section 10.1 is the big one to note. It pretty well says the service may not work and the customer can still keep on paying for a service that does not work.

And if someone from WildBlue tells you something, well that information is bogus and not to be taken as something to fix the problems with the WildBlue system.

"Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of an implied warranty" Many have had their States Attorneys either fix problems or get the contract null and voided, due to being unfair to the consumer.

Section 10.2 Would seem to infer that if your service dies and you call in and they don't fix it for months, you can get your monthly fee's back for the time past the original call of non-working service.

Actually section 10.4 is a general disclaimer for system maintenance. Which unfortunately is not pre-announced to customers. And with the DAMA controls on the system, phone service for the most part will not work anyways. But what the agreement actual says is" The service shall not be used as you primary or 'life line' tele-communications service". That would be construed as email or instant messages and possibly some type of phone service that may kind of work on the system.

Section 10.6 Is interesting. Who is this "Us"? "The provisions of this agreement are for the benefit of Us, WildBlue and our respective....." So wheres the consumer protection in this contract with this section being in here? Does the consumer not have any rights in this contract?

Section 11.2 The U.S. mail notification or even email. Unless there is confirmation of a person receiving the document. That sent document is void unless confirmation of receipt is confirmed. Thats how court summons work.

And people can also not be expected to go to the website on a daily basis to see if there are any changes in the agreement.

Section 11.4 This one is always interesting and Judges are now voiding entire contracts due to it. "If any term of the agreement is found by a court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable, it shall be construed in such a way, as to eliminate the offending aspects, while still giving as much effect as possible to the intension's of such term" Now what this means is that if parts of the contract are illegal and anti-consumer, then the company just rewrites that portion to comply with actual laws or even removes that section. But Judges are finding that to be not good enough anymore and are voiding the entire contracts that are designed to screw the customer and make millions for the company,while providing spotty service.

Xplornet Internet services in Canada actual has a line in their agreement that says "4. USE OF SERVICE: You are prohibited from using the Service and......" They know about it and have not fixed it.  So anyone using the service is violating the agreement. It should read something like... "4. USE OF SERVICE: You are prohibited from using the Service for and as well shall....."

Now THAT is a response. Ten Hundred TestMy bucks for you.

[generallee76]

in response to your statement,  I NEVER got a MANUAL, I did not receive any real instruction after the unit was installed, as a matter of fact the TWO installers that put my system were not fully educated in the satellite internet wiring or  installation and did not know how to explain the system too me.

They used CCTV coax to start with, trouble, trouble trouble until another installer came out and replaced the CCTV coax with the proper orange colored coax. But most all of the system has been replaced piece by piece. I've had so many service calls that they new me. SO

[compuguybna]

GeneralLee76, I just noticed you are from Dickson, Tn.......

You are on the SAME BEAM that I was on before I cancelled.  This beam is tremendously OVERFILLED. THREE field technicians and a group of engineers at Wildblue continually lied to me about this, always stating there was nothing wrong with the performance of my system

Your "peak time" speeds will never get any better I'm afraid.

As a matter of fact, wildblue recently CLOSED this beam to new subscribers because its overfilled, overworked, and

over capacity.

I am not sure whether they've resolved any issues or whether they've opened it back up to new orders though.

I'd complain til you have the option to cancel!  If you need more contact names and phone numbers, I'd be glad to assist!

[generallee76]

Thanks for the info, they had already stated that too me.  Both service techs and the call center.  I think they need to be regulated.  They get service free I guess sooooo...  I am not under contract at all..I have done my 18 months..  Yes, if you would give me the name and #  to call that would be great.  Are you now on Hughsnet???    Tks much  the general

[compuguybna]

Oh, I thought you were trying to get OUT of your contract.........Heck, with the service you are receiving, I would have cancelled already.

I had only ventured into ONE MONTH of Wildblue before I cancelled.  And I would have never gotten ANY response from corporate had I not filed a complaint with the BBB....

Yes, I am on HUGHESNET, and I have not had any problems with them the 6 months I've had it (knock on wood).

I hate paying $90 a month, but its better than paying for another phone line and dialup!

I am on the PRO PLUS lease plan.  1.6Mbps  425MB daily download limit (FREE dowloads between 2am and 7am)

I use a download manager and download the crap outta stuff while I'm asleep!

[fikester]

GeneralLee76, I just noticed you are from Dickson, Tn.......

You are on the SAME BEAM that I was on before I cancelled.  This beam is tremendously OVERFILLED. THREE field technicians and a group of engineers at Wildblue continually lied to me about this, always stating there was nothing wrong with the performance of my system

Your "peak time" speeds will never get any better I'm afraid.

As a matter of fact, wildblue recently CLOSED this beam to new subscribers because its overfilled, overworked, and

over capacity.

I am not sure whether they've resolved any issues or whether they've opened it back up to new orders though.

I'd complain til you have the option to cancel!  If you need more contact names and phone numbers, I'd be glad to assist!

looks like that beam is open as of today on both zips...... however still not providing advertised speeds? (I was told specifically at no given times would speeds upload or download fall below 80% of advertised package speeds.) I'm severely confused on how some state that they have had over 36 months of trouble free service with WB?

[zalternate]

looks like that beam is open as of today on both zips...... however still not providing advertised speeds? (I was told specifically at no given times would speeds upload or download fall below 80% of advertised package speeds.) I'm severely confused on how some state that they have had over 36 months of trouble free service with WB?

http://wildblue.com/company/doPressReleaseDetailsAction.do?pressReleaseID=62

EchoStar?s AMC-15. The new satellite, will serve customers in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia and Arkansas.

If they did not increase capacity at the NOC's/Gateways to accommodate the new satellites capacity in the area, people will still be screwed. And speeds will drop for the current users on the AnikF2 and WildBlue1 as well.

[dcroc84375]

in response to your statement,  I NEVER got a MANUAL, I did not receive any real instruction after the unit was installed, as a matter of fact the TWO installers that put my system were not fully educated in the satellite internet wiring or  installation and did not know how to explain the system too me.

They used CCTV coax to start with, trouble, trouble trouble until another installer came out and replaced the CCTV coax with the proper orange colored coax. But most all of the system has been replaced piece by piece. I've had so many service calls that they new me. SO

Hi General Lee, Like you I didn't receive a manual when they installed my system about five years ago, as a matter of fact all I got was the page I signed., I have recorded my up down speeds from last Sept till now, like you still setting in the dirt as far as the speed is concerned, Like you I have jumped through all the hoops with tech support and had repair out, their newest tactic is to change some of the parts of the dish it's self, and say try that, well the equipment isn't the problem, never has been. You are right about the overcrowding, it only logical if there is band width for 1 million accounts and they sell 3 million contracts guess who is on the short end of the stick, They almost have to throttle the speeds so everyone can stay connected, and it's real plain who gives up the most, the pro pack users. What gets me is how if you raise enough noise, they will wave their magic wand and your speed will go up for a short time but then it's back in the dirt. Wonder how many people are satisfied with all the lies?

[56Wrecker]

With WildBlue, I was randomly (probably) selected to participate in their "Alpha" program to test new equipment and high speeds for what became their "Exede" program. The SPEEDS during that test-period were phenomenal ( extremely fast ) !!! The "deal" for me and others on that "Alpha" program was FREE SERVICE during the testing. At the end of the "Alpha" testing program, they gave the participants FREE SERVICE through the end of 2012 as a "thank you".

HOWEVER......EVERY PARTICIPANT was "shut-down" and could not receive even the MINIMUM SERVICE at the end of the "Alpha" testing. On top of that....they continued to bill my bank account electronically and I had to argue with a Service Person on the phone each month in order to get refunds. They STILL owe me $ 98.00. I have spent over $ 200.00 additional in cell-phone fees attempting to get these "minor problems" resolved. I was OFF the Internet for more than a week ( which has caused me serious monetary problems ).

MOST of the "Customer Service" people with WildBlue have HONESTLY TRIED to fix these problems. Their problem is: no authority. The COMPANY is SERIOUSLY MISMANAGED !!! It was bought-out by ViaSat a few months ago. ( IF you have any "Stock Investment" in either WildBlue OR ViaSat...I would suggest that you sell the stock and do NOT re-invest UNTIL they change TOP Management PERSONNEL.

I was "required" to "Electronically-Sign" a 2-year extension agreement in order to get back on the Internet. I told the Customer Service person ( very good help, I might add...) that " I am NOT at all interested in signing an agreement...after experiencing the "problems that I have encoiuntered." But, it was necessary in order for me to get back on the Internet (with WildBlue - Exede-ViaSat ) I told him that as far as I am concerned...that contract was signed under "duress" AND is "VOIDABLE" by me at ANY TIME that I choose !!!

We have FINALLY gotten "fibre-optic" phone-lines in my area......SO.....DSL is NOW available HERE !! (from some outfit ??? )

I WILL be looking for some other Internet Service when I can find the time to do so !!!!

The employees of WildBlue/ViaSat honestly TRY ( I believe ) to FIX problems....They just don't have the "authority" to do so.

COMPANY MANAGEMENT IS "the PROBLEM" !!!

just my "Experienced Opinion.....

[hidden]

Edited May 11, 2012 by CA3LE
removed email address for safety

[mudmanc4]

I feel your pain. Nuff said

[dcroc84375]

With WildBlue, I was randomly (probably) selected to participate in their "Alpha" program to test new equipment and high speeds for what became their "Exede" program. The SPEEDS during that test-period were phenomenal ( extremely fast ) !!! The "deal" for me and others on that "Alpha" program was FREE SERVICE during the testing. At the end of the "Alpha" testing program, they gave the participants FREE SERVICE through the end of 2012 as a "thank you".

HOWEVER......EVERY PARTICIPANT was "shut-down" and could not receive even the MINIMUM SERVICE at the end of the "Alpha" testing. On top of that....they continued to bill my bank account electronically and I had to argue with a Service Person on the phone each month in order to get refunds. They STILL owe me $ 98.00. I have spent over $ 200.00 additional in cell-phone fees attempting to get these "minor problems" resolved. I was OFF the Internet for more than a week ( which has caused me serious monetary problems ).

MOST of the "Customer Service" people with WildBlue have HONESTLY TRIED to fix these problems. Their problem is: no authority. The COMPANY is SERIOUSLY MISMANAGED !!! It was bought-out by ViaSat a few months ago. ( IF you have any "Stock Investment" in either WildBlue OR ViaSat...I would suggest that you sell the stock and do NOT re-invest UNTIL they change TOP Management PERSONNEL.

I was "required" to "Electronically-Sign" a 2-year extension agreement in order to get back on the Internet. I told the Customer Service person ( very good help, I might add...) that " I am NOT at all interested in signing an agreement...after experiencing the "problems that I have encoiuntered." But, it was necessary in order for me to get back on the Internet (with WildBlue - Exede-ViaSat ) I told him that as far as I am concerned...that contract was signed under "duress" AND is "VOIDABLE" by me at ANY TIME that I choose !!!

We have FINALLY gotten "fibre-optic" phone-lines in my area......SO.....DSL is NOW available HERE !! (from some outfit ??? )

I WILL be looking for some other Internet Service when I can find the time to do so !!!!

The employees of WildBlue/ViaSat honestly TRY ( I believe ) to FIX problems....They just don't have the "authority" to do so.

COMPANY MANAGEMENT IS "the PROBLEM" !!!

just my "Experienced Opinion.....

[hidden]

Hi there 56 Wrecker, All I have to say is I'm not the only one to get zapped with the new wild blue, or via sat or what ever they call it, wonder how long it will take for them to over load via sat one?? Any bets, Mine with Exceed was great till today, had trouble getting on all day and noone answering the phone at my local money funnel, Damn you would think I would have learned after 6 years on wild blue, I've been on Exceed one month and trouble all ready just like they did on wild blue only faster speeds to begin with boasting 10 mgz today it was so slow I couldn't even get on the home page man I need to smack my self in the head for spending the two hundred to get back in the same game just different game. How's your speeds there cuz? Sounds like you started off rougher than I did. LOL There has to be a end to this somewhere, I was told by one of the honchos at my money funnel that wild blue will be shutting down pretty soon. so guess I need to get back on dial up at $100.00 a month at least they don't lie to you, you know it's going to be slow and they don't make any promises that go away after the first 30 days LOL. Have a good one, Dave.

[56Wrecker]

Dave,

The SERVICE varies CONSIDERABLY "hour-to-hour". One moment 15GB speed.....next moment "dial-up speed"...then NOTHING for a while.

They are TRYING to LEARN their OWN SYSTEM !!!

WildBlue/Exede/ViaSat has the "capability".....just LOUSY MANAGEMENT !!!

my opinion...

THANKS for the HONEST reply !

56Wrecker

[FogNorth]

Actually that is censure and I don't have time for it. Wanted to make a quick comment in passing about this topic based on my experience with ViaSat/Excede/Wildblue lash up. But I am over it. Goodbye almost before I say Hello..