The Car Thread

[tommie gorman]

It sounds like the UK would be greatly benefitted by one of those cars I read about that uses braking energy stored up for some of it's power. I think they get better mileage in town than they do on the highway.

[Voltageman]

Most if not all of the new hybrids use the energy from braking to recharge the batteries..

Around the city, it is mostly the electric motor that powers the car.  Electric motors are very efficient at stop/go and low speeds(compared to gas), but are not so good at highway speeds, which is where the gas engine kicks in to help out and recharge the batteries.

[Roco]

It sounds like the UK would be greatly benefitted by one of those cars I read about that uses braking energy stored up for some of it's power. I think they get better mileage in town than they do on the highway.

Regenrative braking , best applied to electric power, that has been around since the 60's , but nobody is willing to be the  pack leader with electric.

the 4 wheel electric milk delivery vehicle is still firmly fixed in drivers minds,  so they all rush out and buy a 3ltr. BMW, and crawl to work at 9 mph.  

   

[tommie gorman]

That was it Voltageman, thanks.

[Voltageman]

the 4 wheel electric milk delivery vehicle is still firmly fixed in drivers minds,  so they all rush out and buy a 3ltr. BMW, and crawl to work at 9 mph.  

The only problem I see with fully electric cars is this...Unless you are charging the car using solar, wind, or hydro power, you are still burning fuel.  The power plants will need to turn out more juice to charge the vehicles..So in reality, you are burning just as much fuel, just the emissions are going somewhere else.

At least the regenerative braking is actually taking wasted energy and converting it back to usable energy..This DOES conserve fuel.

I like the Hydrogen Stations that use solar power and ground water to make the hydrogen.  That is, in my mind, progress.  No fuel is needed to produce the fuel(ethanol for example needs to be cooked...using nat gas usually).  The only problem may be water supply eventually.  This is where solar/wind/nuclear powered desalination plants could be useful.  Not to replace oil right away, but at least cut the demand for it a little.

[Roco]

Hi Voltageman , yes you are right on the Electric motive power , just moving the problem somewhere else , although the generation may be more fuel efficient

as the IC engine efficiency  is only about 40%

your last paragraph would be the ideal way to go,  do you have any electric city cars, ? never seen one in London UK,

[tommie gorman]

I thought this was slightly interesting.

The use of ethanol as an automobile fuel in the United States dates as far back as 1908, to the Ford Model T. Henry Ford was a supporter of home-grown renewable fuels, and his Model T could be modified to run on either gasoline or pure alcohol.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biomass.html

Another plus to ethanol production.

Co-Products: There are two main co-products created in the production of ethanol: carbon dioxide and distillers grain. Carbon dioxide is given off in great quantities during fermentation and many ethanol plants collect that carbon dioxide, clean it of any residual alcohol, compress it and sell it for use to carbonate beverages or in the flash freezing of meat. Distillers grains, wet and dried, are high in protein and other nutrients and are a highly valued livestock feed ingredient. Some ethanol plants also create a "syrup" containing some of the solids that can be a separate production sold in addition to the distillers grain, or combined with it. Ethanol production is a no-waste process that adds value to the corn by converting it into more valuable products.

http://westernplainsenergy.biz/ethanol.html

[tommie gorman]

Another ethanol story. Why not a replacement.

Car Talk: Ethanol brewed at home

Dear Tom and Ray: I graduated last year from Johns Hopkins University with a degree in biophysics. I was wondering if there is any way I can use my chemistry knowledge to increase my gas mileage. In college, a friend and I created a super still in the back room of his house. I provided genetically engineered yeast that had its methanolproducing gene knocked out, and he designed the rig. I own a '95 Toyota Camry. My question: How much ethanol/methanol can I add to each tank of gas without destroying the engine? Is there any simple alteration I can make to my car that would allow me to increase the alcoholto-gas ratio? Last and least important, is this legal? -- David

Tom: I don't know anything about the legality of your home biochemistry lab, but there's nothing illegal about using a mix of gasoline and ethanol in your car. It's done all the time.

Ray: Ethanol has long been seen as a potential replacement for, or supplement to, gasoline. Because it's produced from plants -- such as corn -- that grow prolifically in the United States, acquiring a steady supply of the stuff doesn't require invading any Middle Eastern countries.

Tom: For a couple of decades now, some gasolines have been successfully mixed with ethanol. They're normally found in concentrations of 5 percent to 10 percent ethanol. In the early days, there were some problems with these "gasohol" fuels, because the alcohol degraded rubber hoses and seals in fuel systems. But that seems to be a thing of the past, at least in these low concentrations.

Ray: So you're probably safe adding 10 percent ethanol to your car without having any problems.

Tom: Now, when you ignore our advice and ruin your '95 Camry with a mixture that's 50 percent ethanol, you should make your next new car a "flexible-fuel vehicle." Flexiblefuel vehicles are designed to run on almost anything: gasoline, ethanol, flat ginger ale, hummus.

Ray: Actually, they can run on ethanol, gasoline or any blend of the two. But they're really designed to run on something called E85, which is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.

Tom: They could, theoretically, run on 100 percent ethanol. But by adding 15 percent gasoline to the mixture, you help the car start reliably, because gasoline is more volatile and is easier to get started.

Ray: It appears that flex-fuel vehicles are about to get more popular. Ford and GM are getting ready to push the technology. And there are hundreds of thousands of flex-fuel vehicles already on the roads. But most of them run on gasoline only, because there aren't enough gas stations that sell E85 yet.

Tom: Of course, that won't be a problem for you, David. Although I suspect you're going to have to move your little still to a bona fide laboratory to comply with local zoning and fire codes, with a flex-fuel car you'll be in fat city, man. And what you don't burn, you can use to make afterdinner drinks.http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/wheels/261322_talk03.html

[tommie gorman]

French  fries to ethanol. What?

Ethanol Farm Potato Waste

April 22, 1999

We recently visited an interesting ethanol plant in Idaho. It is one of two owned by the J. R. Simplot Company that uses potato peel waste as a raw material.

The potato peel is a zero value waste from nearby potato processing plants. These plants peel the potatoes as part of the production of french fries, instant potatoes and similar products. The resultant waste is hauled to the ethanol plant.

http://www.vincentcorp.com/applications/issue93.html

[cholla]

First on the ethanol.Will it's increased use cause my food costs to go up?Next since the USA gets blamed for everything are we going to hear"People are starving & you are making fuel out of food."

Next on the nuclear .I think we use it wrong .Heat generation to make steam to power a steam turbine to power a generator..Then we really can't dispose of the waste.Look what happens with a real meltdown(Chernoble).Until we can figure out how to absorb radiation & turn that into electricity I'm against nuclear.

Next on the hydrogen.This is a good idea for stationary generation of electricity.Mainly a way to store electricity.Generate from solar & wind turn water into hydrogen & oxygen.then burn them back togather to generat electricity.I think instead of direct ground water sewage effluent would be the best water source .

Now for methane.First we have a large untapped source of methane.Human sewage.Think of the amount wasted everyday .Almost all solid human waste could produce methane.Then burn it to produce electricity.

The next methane source is I understand there are vast pockets in the oceans.so why not a floating power generation station that runs on methane.

Now on an unused source of hydro power .Ocean tides Dams could be built that would generate fron the tides coming in & going out.

On wind energy.We are going about this wrong.Large wind generators are OK but take more space.more maintence & the parts cost & wear is higher.If millions of small(regular water type windmill size generators) ran down every fenceline in parts of the country with enough wind .Think of the power that could produce.As well as jobs for maintence people for these.Sure this would have a cost but so does the electricity we buy now.The landowners wouldn't be paid much but would get a free fence & maintence on the fence.

For solar :Its barely OK they need to develope much better solar panels.

I have posted this before the real key is a battery designed much better than anything available.I did find & post some on a polymer battery but development on this has been limited.Opposed by the petroleum industry I bet.

Now for the car part.I would like to see better electric cars .I think the better battery is the whole key.Combined with the electricty generation methods above.

I don't like the way most hybrids work.all power to the ground should be electric.The on board fuel engines should only be connected to an alternator to charge low batteries.To work correctly I think a dual battery pack is whats needed.One pack charges while the other charges.For short extra power both packs could be used at once.This would certainly require a computer box control to route the electricity in the system.

That should be enough for a chapter in a book.

[php]

Some pretty good ideas there...

[tommie gorman]

I am not sure why your food costs would go up, just to produce ethanol. And as you said, we are blamed for everyones plight anyway. What the heck

They are getting top dollar for fossil crap fuels. And ethanol is a lot more nature friendly.

By the way, if we stop shipping our own oil and create E85 we should be fine for much longer. E85 is 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol, it would extend our own oil considerably. All it requires is the flexible fuel cars. (which we already have)

Corn is not the only source of material for ethanol.

"Substantial reductions in ethanol production costs may be made possible by replacing corn with less expensive cellulose-based feedstocks. Cellulosic feedstocks include agricultural wastes, grasses and woods, and other low-value biomass such as municipal waste.( I think that means sewage and yard clippings.) Probably a large % of our total waste we send to the land fill.

We have vast materials available all over the US that simply are not used. As to the cooking fuel we also have coal which does not need to be shipped out of the US. Stop needed exports.

You actually have suprised me a little cholla. I thought you were more for taking care of ourselves, and help the others with any excess only. Stand on our own, like before WWll.

We also already have the necesary technology, flexible fuel cars. And would no longer need catalitic converters, or the other smog crap that lowers the power of the vehicles.

And as always the are many more resources for electricity.

And geo-thermal heating and cooling units in homes would greatly reduce the use for any fuels, except the electricity to run the pumps and fans.

We have the resources to eliminate a lot of our needs. But the gov't for some reason will not put it all to use.

On the exports of food. Here is one of my motto's. Take care of yourself first or how can you help someone else.

Kind of like my helper. Things are a little tight at tthe moment financially. So I told my helper things were going to be tightened up. He asked how he was supposed to survive. I said look here. If I do not take care of myself first, how do you expect me to provide you with a JOB? If I do not exist, how will your Job exist?

How can we expect help from other countries, if we do not help ourselves first? How can we help other countries, if we do not help ourselves first?

I guess those are my thoughts for the day.

[tommie gorman]

I almost forgot we could probably also say   the middle east. But wouldn't that make it too simple.

So we would switch from being blamed for starting war, to stopping the feeding of the world. Let the USSR grow their own damned corn. They have climates to grow it anyway.

For once lets say what about us and US? 

[Voltageman]

Methanol is a good fuel choice...

It can be produced using horse manure/human waste/garbage dumps.

It is a greenhouse has by itself(more powerful than co2 as a greenhouse gas).  So you are using a greehouse gas that is already present, and would just be released into the atmosphere if not burned as fuel.

By burning it, you are not adding carbon to the carbon cycle, but rather using carbon that already exists in the active carbon cycle.

Gas/Diesel/etc adds to the carbon cycle because you are taking stored carbon from under the earth and adding it to the active carbon cycle.

Ethanol is a good fuel, but it is also not nearly as efficient as gasoline as a fuel...You need more ethanol to create the same energy as gas.

Plus, some form of vegitation is required...Severe droughts, or weather pattern changes could alter crop production, causing a drop in ethanol production.

[tommie gorman]

So as I stated, we just limit the exports. And if there is no extra. Oh well.

And just out of curiousity, why do fuel dragsters do so well? If they are not as efficient. Maybe just some more research needs to go into using it as a replacement. Instead of war and cat converters. In my opinion E85 would be great with enough research.

And turbos can replace the needed extra umph. 

[Voltageman]

Just for an example...

A v-6 that gets 23/32 mpg (city/highway) on gas, will get about 16/21 on ethanol(actually those numbers are based on E-85 vs Gas).

You get about the same acceleration, which is why dragsters do ok..But you burn more fuel to achieve it, so you decrease the distance you can travel on the same amount of fuel.

[tommie gorman]

I could live with that for now.

And with some extensive research, I am sure they could change  the ratio considerably.

But I guess the oil barons would not be too happy with that.  Oh well.

At least we would be self dependant. And create several new jobs right over HERE!

[Voltageman]

I personally think energy could become an economic boom like computers were...

We all need energy.  What the govt needs to do, is have more incentives to invest in alternative energy sources...

I'm a big believer in hydro/wave/tidal/wind/solar power.  IMO, everytime the sun rises or the wind blows and we don't harness that power, we are losing out.  If every house had just 1 solar panel, how many millions of barrels of oil would that save?  I bet it would add up.

Every street lamp should be solar.  The technology is there to charge them on the cloudiest of days.  Imagine how much power is wasted lighting roads?

Gyms should be self powered...You have all these people working out, expending energy...Why not generate electric with it...Hell, have a reverse bill...The more electric you make, the less you pay...Hook all the stationary bikes and treadmills up to generators...

You could have places in the malls where there are just a ton of stationary bikes, where you can pedal for exercise, while making some cash for generating electric.

Problem is, the morons in the white house have their hands so deep in the oil barrel, the problem won't be properly addressed for another couple years.

[tommie gorman]

Actually in Missouri we do have a pay back system (or reverse bill) for our electric. Don't you? Besides that if you don't, doesn't not paying (by creating your own) also reverse the bill sort of?

And I would venture to say it will be more than a couple of years before it changes. The gov't will not be the ones to change it, it will be you and me. We have to look for the alternative sources and purchase them and use them. It would not be that hard to put a generator on an excersize bicycle. The rich folks follows the people's purchases.

So purchase and use. 

[cholla]

tommie; Onseparation I didn't mean to suprise you with what the rest of the world would say.I guess I just get tired of hearing how bad America is & didn't want another source.In reality I'm for almost total seperation as far as I'm concerned the only allies I've seen & feel any need for return are Britain & Australia.

On low-value biomass such as municipal waste this would not include human sewage.I need to check but sewage would produce methanol .The biomass would be like you said lawn clippings & any natural vegtable matter we don't use but throw away.I think you mentioned potato peels.Really anything that would ferment & then could be distilled into alcohol or ethanol.So I'm actually in favor of it.

on the increase in food cost if they use too much corn then my conebred & Post Toasties will cost more.

I'm with Voltageman on the burning of methanol partially eliminating a greenhouse gas.

Geo-thermal where it is available is good.To someextent this is everywhere with a heat pump.But not like in places where they have running hot water from the ground.

Take me I can use an evaporative cooler most of the summer.A lot more efficient than any refrigeration unit.

also tommie on the electric company buy back on electricity you produce extra.They pay almost nothing for this.Like what there cost to produce the same amount minus a transmission charge for getting yours back to them.So really just propaganda.

I'm going to see if I can find some info on ocean methane to post.

Anyone know what would happen if we could run some heavyduty cables to the Van Allen belt? Maybe a good use for the "International"space station paid for courtesy of the American tax payers.

[Roco]

Roco ;I bet you wouldn't want to buy fuel for it at 5 to7 MPG.But I guess if you could get area restaurants to give you their old cooking oil.You could filter it & a turbine would burn it.  

I am  working on alternatives 

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/chrysler.shtml

Take a look at pulse jets

that guy is crazy,

[cholla]

I liked the gokart.I continued to read & like this too

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/turbine4.htm

[Roco]

I liked the gokart.I continued to read & like this too

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/turbine4.htm

Yeah it is a amazing site , good to see guys going for it, with very little supprt ,

and not giving up, thinking outside the box, but if they come up with something good

I guess the giants will tread on it, and give the guy a $ million or so  to retire 

 

[cholla]

That reminds me of a story.Since I'm sure you've heard at least one about the water into gas 'Pill".

This is a variation on that.when I was a kid a freind of mine dad said he actually pulled this.He was a real jokester so I beleive he did.

He had an auxilery tank on his car & disconected the main one.He pulled up to a full service station & when they came out he said he just needed water .He proceeded to fill his tank with water & then took about 5 aspirin out of a bottle (not an aspirin bottle) & put them in the tank filler.Then he did a bounce of the car on the bumper to look like he was mixing the water & pills .Then he just drove off.I think he did this at several stations.

[Roco]

:lol:Nice one Cholla

I think I can go one better than that , on a 2 stroke engine with integral gearbox , separated from the engine with a oil seal , I found if the oilseal was shot, that filling the gearbox with 2 stroke mix, the engine would run on the throttle by sucking the fuel through the seal , and I would give demonstrations of running the engine with the fuel tank removed,  I made a name as the guy that could run a engine on just air,  as a teenager I had a little motorcycle tuning biz.on the side,

the last 2 stroke I looked at was a Kawasaki , I hung up my tools at that point ,