P A T R I O T I S M

[mudmanc4]

I hope our soldiers will protect us when the government calls for martial law. 

Your soldiers will be at home protecting there own families!Know your rights and use them.Prepare yourself and the ones you love.

Tdawnaz

talking to my donors yesterday...it was a very scarey moment when the news came over the radio...most didn't realize the full ramifications of what had happened...it was surreal...

    are you reffering to the statements of the new sec of defense?If so I agree , and we'd all better wake up and forget about being so damn politically correct.Do you think in 42' this country would turn so yellow? No , they fought and died , for you.Good post

    One other thing, we'd better stand up now , for Isreal , and continue to do so, it is written the ramifications if we don't.No matter your faith.

[tommie gorman]

"Hunt, who will turn 88 on Friday and lives in Waterford, is among the country's 400 surviving crew members of the USS Phoenix and the perhaps 5,000 total surviving veterans of Pearl Harbor."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061207/NEWS03/612070379/-1/BUSINESS07

"Dec. 7, 1941, the date former President Franklin D. Roosevelt said "will live in infamy," still burns brightly in the memories of the Saginaw County men who were at Pearl Harbor that day.

But as the veterans number dwindles, survivors fear the date will lose its impact. "

http://www.mlive.com/news/sanews/index.ssf?/base/news-21/116557684656880.xml&coll=9

Over 150 people gathered at the Charlestown Navy Yard yesterday as a younger generation joined with survivors to mark the 65th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor and remember the 2,403 Americans who lost their lives on that day.

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=171043

I guess that is what you meant.  A little before my time.(a lot)

Thanks fella's. Whoever you might be. I wonder about Paladin. I mean that was 65 years ago, they would have to be 73 years or better to have even been in the service then.

[tdawnaz]

    are you reffering to the statements of the new sec of defense?If so I agree , and we'd all better wake up and forget about being so damn politically correct.Do you think in 42' this country would turn so yellow? No , they fought and died , for you.Good post

oh no...i sure goofed that post up...sorry for the confusion...i fixed my post...it should have said...

talking to my donors yesterday...they said...on dec 7' date= 1941 that it was a very scarey moment when the news came over the radio...most didn't realize the full ramifications of what had happened...it was surreal...

[Le_Murphant]

Sorry to break the republican fun, but I must say I disagree. If you have read a few of my posts, you will notice that I disagree with many things, so you might just want to skip my post. Then again, you might want to know what I have to say. Well, what I have to say this time is mainly opinion. IMHO, patriotism is the alienation of self to the cause of an exterior organization. Patriotism is a way to stop making decisions, and agreeing blindly to whatever the homeland says. And in many respects I disagree. Not only with US patriotism, but with patriotism as a whole for the reasons I mentioned above. So although one might think one must show patriotism when its country is at war, I disagree. It is possible to agree with a decision that goes in the ways of a nation without doing it for patriotic reasons. If you want to be good to your country, you have plenty of other ways to do so.

[tommie gorman]

A little hard to understand fully what you are saying, but to reiterate something I posted before. It is an idea this " P A T R I O T I S M ". Not something we blindly follow. We believe what we are doing is right idea. I believe in freedom, and what it stands for. And that my kids will enjoy the same freedom for generations. And also believe we have to fight for each and everyday. And those not willing to do so also, I don't really know what to think of them. And those folks I truly pity fully, for their lack of such a great feeling that they could have deep down to their soul. That is why I shed a tear when I salute the flag. I love this great country. It has had problems, and mistakes. Sure, tell me one country that has had any less. It appears to also be the first upon a foreign disaster also. I am not sure where you got that the US was an organization. It is a wonderful country. One that means something when there are problems, and over the horizon here comes that flag flying high over the troubles to lend a helping hand.

Patriotism in no way stops me from making decisions. That would be communism, I believe. I make decisions everyday as to what I truly believe in. Don't you?

A for instance again. I would not salute any Officer or President, only the office. You might have to be prior military to fully understand that.

I my dear fellow do not only show patriotism during war, I had it long before that. I remember as far back as Kindergarten when I was a see small child and stood there under that flag crossing my heart and saying the pledge of allegiance "To The Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands,

one Nation under God,

indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." No where in there does it say organization. That was more along the lines of Hitler. We are Americans.

Now if you want to read the entire thread and get back in a post here, then maybe I can help you a little more. Otherwise I would have to rewrite this whole thread over again just to get to all the important points that have already been posted.

So please read on my friend. 

What country are you from anyway young man. You remind me somewhat of Miles Smiles that was in this thread before.

[tommie gorman]

Sorry Le_Murphant, I did not know you were from Canada. That explains it. (I just thought to look it up in your profile)

Here if you see some one in trouble you lend a helping hand if possible. No matter what, as long as they will let you. Not having much of a military in Canada that would also explain some of it. As seldom is Canada seen in skirmishes. Your country enjoys our protection without having to put out for it in $$ or lives. That is fine also. That is what we are here for. Same goes for Mexico.

  We do what we can. And expect outsides not to understand. Our forefathers died for  all of this. And so we just pass it along. 

As the Military says these days, I believe "hoorah" 

[tdawnaz]

well said tommie...i shed a tear

[mudmanc4]

Re; Tommie Gorman

Patriotism in no way stops me from making decisions. That would be communism, I believe. I make decisions everyday as to what I truly believe in. Don't you?

     WOW........a profound statement Tommie............on that note.As I read through this post , I had an Epiphany.

   To explain , not to me misinstrued ! I to believe in this country, ONLY for one reason    "under GOD"  Which includes Israel.

  But as to my patriotism(BTW break that word down ), It's really become the band wagon in this country, not anything to do w/ anything.

I say live and let live, but don't mess w/the foundations on which this great country was founded on.As far as the communism remark , think for one moment as a human , not as a citizen of any country.Collective "patriotism" could then be instrued as forced temporary communism.

  Don't put your feelings in the way, and jump the shark on this one, think about it.

[Le_Murphant]

Oops, tommie, my bad, I thought this was the first page, not the 14th (it could have been the first, but I felt like I was missing something). And the fact that Canada barely has an army almost makes me proud, if such a thing is possible. I do not, indeed, share your values. But as mudmanc4 pointed out, a little research on the term "patriotism" was necessary, and I found the wikipedia article to be quite complete. There I learned that indeed my view of patriotism was often mislead. I did not think of patriotism as "pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation" but rather as its nationalist counterpart, "my country right or wrong". A phrase that really caught my attention was "a patriot can be critical of his or her country for failing to live up to its ideals", which renders false my statement that patriotism is always alienation.

As for the term "organization", wikipedia defines it as "a formal group of people with one or more shared goals". thus I was partially wrong in my use of that term. The USA only constitute an organization when its citizen and supporters unite in a common goal (eg: going to war, protecting their interests, resolving a problem). Thus a country is not always an organization.

Mudmanc4, thank you for making me learn the meaning of the word "epiphany", but could you otherwise clarify your post above? I'm not too sure which part of it is your opinion and which part are quotes, especially in the part with Israel under God.

If you are too lazy to type it, here is the wikipedia link to patriotism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Its a pretty interesting link, I suggest you read it if you plan on posting in this thread.

[Voltageman]

The patriots who founded this country did not even trust the gov't they helped to create...

The right to bear arms was basically a safety net for the citizens in case the gov't needed to be otherthrown.

[mudmanc4]

The patriots who founded this country did not even trust the gov't they helped to create...

The right to bear arms was basically a safety net for the citizens in case the gov't needed to be otherthrown.

Very well put   

Oops, tommie, my bad, I thought this was the first page, not the 14th (it could have been the first, but I felt like I was missing something). And the fact that Canada barely has an army almost makes me proud, if such a thing is possible. I do not, indeed, share your values. But as mudmanc4 pointed out, a little research on the term "patriotism" was necessary, and I found the wikipedia article to be quite complete. There I learned that indeed my view of patriotism was often mislead. I did not think of patriotism as "pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation" but rather as its nationalist counterpart, "my country right or wrong". A phrase that really caught my attention was "a patriot can be critical of his or her country for failing to live up to its ideals", which renders false my statement that patriotism is always alienation.

As for the term "organization", wikipedia defines it as "a formal group of people with one or more shared goals". thus I was partially wrong in my use of that term. The USA only constitute an organization when its citizen and supporters unite in a common goal (eg: going to war, protecting their interests, resolving a problem). Thus a country is not always an organization.

Mudmanc4, thank you for making me learn the meaning of the word "epiphany", but could you otherwise clarify your post above? I'm not too sure which part of it is your opinion and which part are quotes, especially in the part with Israel under God.

If you are too lazy to type it, here is the wikipedia link to patriotism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Its a pretty interesting link, I suggest you read it if you plan on posting in this thread.

Easy big Daddy, this is a constructive and informational thread . Reading your post , you are very much like those in the USA we see as far left. As far as the patriotism definition , I think your getting confused with another post. On that note , it would be a must to live in this country for most if not all of your life to gather the understanding of patriotism in the USA.Take 911, for instance, anyone will remember , if you did not have a flag on your car, of some sort.At least for the next 45 - 90 days , you were looked at as disconnected, or un-American.We all cried, all of us true Americans, we all felt as one , we were , we still are ! We don't always realize how connected we are , until the true patriotism , the feeling of strength, knowing we are the best country in the world , the strongest , and we all know when the shit comes down, we can count on each other !  Thats patriotism!

To the comment on Israel. This country was founded by God fearing men, (and women).If you don't understand the correlation between Israel and the USA, I would be more than glad to carry on a lengthly conversation with you on the subject . As far as the quotes or opinions , aren't all quotes , mostly derived from opinions?In lue of the fact this country is run by nothing more than people with one opinion or another?(BTW, thanks for the wiki).

[Le_Murphant]

"The right to bear arms was basically a safety net for the citizens in case the gov't needed to be otherthrown."

Why would you need a government-imposed right to overthrow such a government? I mean, if you want to revolt against a government, you do no need to go by its rules. Its not like guns had any diplomatic use or anything. There is no rule against marching on the whitehouse because, well, such a rule would be useless in a situation. Eeh, I'm having a hard time explaining myself. Oh well, it isn't really important.

[tommie gorman]

I guess you could say I like to protect what is mine. My country is partly mine. My state, my county, my city, etc... My countryfolk, it is all partly mine. If we stick togather we stand as one nation under god. Stand togather is the key part. Like the pllane that crashed on 911. Believeit or not they were true patriots. They stood togather against unsurmountable odds, knowing that they were going to die. They also knew they were headed to suicidally blow up something. They stood togather toe to toe, shoulder to shoulder and took on the idiots doing this for what. I believe it was for their families and Americans as a whole. To save countless lives. They gave their all just like any good soldier on the front lines for his or her country. I am very proud of them and at times wish it was I in that pane. What a patriotic way to go. I would only hope others would percieve it the way I do, if I gaveit all up that way. I am proud of the whole lot of them, the passengers of United airlines Flight 93.

I sort of feel sorry that you do not treasure what was given  to you this way. And am glad I do. It makes me feel good to breathe the air of freedom earned. Knowing as long as young men here believe this (myself included), it will stay that way. I hope this feeling of patriotism never blows away the way yours did. 

I guess a good question would be how far would you go to help someone else Le_Murphant ?? 

[tdawnaz]

gosh...i just thought i could get some input from some of the men and women that were old enough to remember the moment pearl harbor was bombed 65 years ago...didn't intend to start another feud about patriotism...

my question was about a day effected the entire world not about the feeling just in this country...every country has it's standards of patriotism and loyalty to one's own country...so play nice boys...some of this is getting a bit heated and outta line...

[mudmanc4]

gosh...i just thought i could get some input from some of the men and women that were old enough to remember the moment pearl harbor was bombed 65 years ago...didn't intend to start another feud about patriotism...

my question was about a day effected the entire world not about the feeling just in this country...every country has it's standards of patriotism and loyalty to one's own country...so play nice boys...some of this is getting a bit heated and outta line...

Please excuse me if I got "out of line",  The negativity , you get from some , just sparks my enthusiasm. Its' all good:) i always enjoy a good constructive conversation.I also believe, we need to get a little more observant of the situation at hand, and keep our patriotism , and great discusions on the subject on the move 

[tdawnaz]

okay...i just didn't want it to get outta hand...it's been good so far...just didn't want to be havin to move any posts out...hahaha...way too much work for me  ...

nobody was outta line yet really...just headin it off at the pass...so to speak...it was just taking on a heated tone...

carry on 

[Le_Murphant]

alright tdawnaz, I'l try to keep the passion down, but discussing with people that don't agree with me is a treat that seldom happens because I usually hang out with people that think like me, which is quite normal. Usually, someone is interesting/intelligent when they think like you  I dont like flaming (or being flamed) so if I didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't see me posting. I don't need to have the last word.

tommie, you might have heard of the question that asks:

"Would you save 100 people you have never met or one person you love?"

In that case, from what I understand, you would include people of your country in "people you love", whistle I wouldn't, simply because I'm not very patriotic. On the other side, I think that might make me have a higher esteem for every other human being on earth, putting them on an equal scale as the people of my country. So I could not give a definitive answer to you question about how far I would go to help someone, it really depends on whom, and I would assume that the same goes for you.

[tommie gorman]

Here is something I got in my e-mail. Perfect for this.

Please take a minute out of your busy life to stop and read this. >

> 

> The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,

> I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.

> My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,

> My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.

> Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,

> Transforming the yard to a winter delight.

> The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,

> Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.

> My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,

> Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.

> In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,

> So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

>

> The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,

> But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.

> Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the

> sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.

> My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,

> And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

> Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,

> A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.

>

> A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,

> Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.

> Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,

> Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

> "What are you doing?" I asked without fear,

> "Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!

> Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,

> You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"

>

> For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,

> Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..

> To the window that danced with a warm fire's light

> Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,

> I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."

> "It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,

> That separates you from the darkest of times.

> No one had to ask or beg or implore me,

> I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.

> My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,"

> Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."

> My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',

> And now it is my turn and so, here I am.

> I've not seen my own son in more than a while,

> But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.

>

> Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,

> The red, white, and blue... an American flag.

> I can live through the cold and the being alone,

> Away from my family, my house and my home.

> I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,

> I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.

> I can carry the weight of killing another,

> Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..

> Who stand at the front against any and all,

> To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

>

> "So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,

> Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."

> "But isn't there something I can do, at the least,

> "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?

> It seems all too little for all that you've done,

> For being away from your wife and your son."

> Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,

> "Just tell us you love us, and never forget.

> To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,

> To stand your own watch, no matter how long.

> For when we come home, either standing or dead,

> To know you remember we fought and we bled.

> Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,

> That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."

>

> PLEASE, Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many

> people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our

> U.S. service men and women for our being able to celebrate these

> festivities. Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we

> owe. Make people stop  and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for

> us.

>

> LCDR Jeff Giles, SC, USN

> 30th Naval Construction Regiment

> OIC, Logistics Cell One

> Al Taqqadum, Iraq.

I am not sure if this explains it any more, but they are also doing this for your and yours also. 

[Roco]

Nice one Tommie , Makes me think of  TMN member Tstillery ,

Yeah, it's easy sitting at home in the warm with the family , the festive season just around the corner , complaining about the weather, Bills etc.

Just spare a thought for those on duty , guarding our back ,  Military, Police ,Hospital workers ,the Charity workers , and many others who will be on duty over the Christmas time ,

done my share of that, stood watching Christmas night go by just waiting for all  hell to break loose, and a cold Christmas dinner being reheated in the micro,

So on Christmas day give  thanks to them, and get on and enjoy the day,

 

[tommie gorman]

And no you did not have to ask them to do it either. But they still did. So here is another one.

        A Soldiers Request

Please send this to any military person you know.

>

>>

>>>Subject: A Christmas Poem

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS, HE LIVED ALL ALONE,

>>>IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE.

>>>

>>>I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE,

>>>AND TO SEE JUST WHO IN THIS HOME DID LIVE.

>>>

>>>I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE,

>>>NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, NOT EVEN A TREE.

>>>

>>>NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND,

>>>ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES OF FAR DISTANT LANDS.

>>>

>>>WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, AWARDS OF ALL KINDS,

>>>A SOBER THOUGHT CAME THROUGH MY MIND.

>>>

>>>FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, IT WAS DARK AND DREARY,

>>>I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER, ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY.

>>>

>>>THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, SILENT, ALONE,

>>>CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME.

>>>

>>>THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER,

>>>NOT HOW I PICTURED A UNITED STATES SOLDIER.

>>>

>>>WAS THIS THE HERO OF WHOM I'D JUST READ?

>>>CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED?

>>>

>>>I REALIZED THE FAMILIES THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT,

>>>OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT.

>>>

>>>SOON ROUND THE WORLD, THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY,

>>>AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY.

>>>

>>>THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR,

>>>BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE.

>>>

>>>I COULDN'T HELP WONDER HOW MANY LAY ALONE,

>>>ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME.

>>>

>>>THE VERY THOUGHT BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE,

>>>I DROPPED TO MY KNEES AND STARTED TO CRY.

>>>

>>>THE SOLDIER AWAKENED AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE,

>>>"SANTA DON'T CRY, THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE;

>>>

>>>I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, I DON'T ASK FOR MORE,

>>>MY LIFE IS MY GOD, MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."

>>>

>>>THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP,

>>>I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, I CONTINUED TO WEEP.

>>>

>>>I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, SO SILENT AND STILL

>>>AND WE BOTH SHIVERED FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL.

>>>

>>>I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT

>>>THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR SO WILLING TO FIGHT.

>>>

>>>THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE,

>>>WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE."

>>>

>>>ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.

>>>"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT."

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>This poem was written by a Marine.

      The following is his request. I think it is reasonable.....

>>>

>>>PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many

>>  people as you can?

>>>Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our U.S.

>>  service men and women for our being able to celebrate these festivities.

      Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make people stop

      and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us.

      Please, do your small part to plant this small seed

And they did not ask anything of you.    (Not much anyway)

[tommie gorman]

Now we have established that you do not undertstand it. Have it. Want it.

But you do recieve it anyway. Are not asked anything for it. And it is costing you absolutely nothing for it. The least you could do is "Just Not Knock It"

Just show some respect.

God Bless America

>John McCain's remarks about the Pledge of Allegiance!

> >

> >In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with respect

> >to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from Senator

> >John McCain is very appropriate:

> >

> >"The Pledge of Allegiance" - by Senator John McCain

> >

> >

> >As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war

> >during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA

> >kept us in solitary confinement

> >or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these

> >conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to

> >a room.

> >

> >This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result

> >of the efforts of millions of Americans onbehalf of a few hundred POWs

> >10,000 miles from home.

> >

> >One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike

> >Christian.

> >

> >Mike came from a small town near Selma , Alabama He didn't wear a pair

> >of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy.

> >He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School Then he

> >became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.

> >Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country

> >and our military provide for people who want to work and want to

> >succeed.

> >

> >As part

> >of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to

> >receive packages from home. In some of these packages were

> >handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.

> >

> >Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months,

> >he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

> >

> >Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's

> >shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

> >

> >I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of

> >our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed

> >the most important and meaningful event.

> >

> >One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and

> >discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it.

> >

> >That evening they returned, opened the door

> >of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian

> >severely for the next couple of hours Then, they opened the door of the

> >cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

> >

> >The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we

> >slept Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.

> >

> >As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the

> >excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting

> >there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another

> >shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was

> >sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had

> >received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag

> >because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag

> >because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our

> >allegiance to our flag and country.

> >

> >So the next time you say the Pledge of

> >Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that

> >thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom

> >around the world.

> >

> >You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country

> >

> >"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to

> >the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible,

> >with liberty and justice for all."

Hell, who knows. It must be more of an American and Ally thing. 

[Roco]

"Hell, who knows. It must be more of an American and Ally thing."

Hi Tommie .more than  just a Ally thing in my view, both our countries have show compasion to all other nations, and tried to uphold world Peace without prejudice ,  but now we are being cast as the villains, so can anybody show me a better way forward , I am receptive to all suggestions on the way to secure world peace ,  saying look the other way and ignore the problems doesn't work , it was tried in pre 1939 , and lead to the worlds darkest hour, It was only Britain and America that pulled us all back for the darkness that was cast over the world,   

just my thoughts on this

[mudmanc4]

"Hell, who knows. It must be more of an American and Ally thing."

Hi Tommie .more than  just a Ally thing in my view, both our countries have show compasion to all other nations, and tried to uphold world Peace without prejudice ,  but now we are being cast as the villains, so can anybody show me a better way forward , I am receptive to all suggestions on the way to secure world peace ,  saying look the other way and ignore the problems doesn't work , it was tried in pre 1939 , and lead to the worlds darkest hour, It was only Britain and America that pulled us all back for the darkness that was cast over the world, 

just my thoughts on this

Those aren't just thoughts, they're facts! As we all know , there can be no world peace, at least not for a long while.IMO there is only one thing we , as a nation can do , before its to late. Band together , and destroy evil! Get a spine back, and do what we've always done. Standing under God , and  sacrificing our friends and family , and self.  :shock:Scary , yes, but true .

  Good stuff Tommie

[tommie gorman]

All of Europe used to be our allies, except when Italy was dumb enough to side with Hitler. Of course this soon showed as a huge mistake. Now adays things have changed some.Look at France. I still have trouble thinking about a bottle of wine. Why did the world go stupid. I still think it is because we did not wait and go through channels that take forever to go through in the first place. The UN council. 

So again curiousity called me.

Countries involved in WWII

Axis Countries

Germany-Italy-Japan-Finland-Hungary-Romania-Bulgaria-Croatia-Slovakia

(the underlined ones I did not remember)

Allied Countries

United Kingdom (England, Great Britain)-United States (America, USA)-Soviet Union (USSR, Russia)-France-Canada-Australia-China-Poland-Greece-Netherlands-Belgium-Czechoslovakia-Luxembourg-Norway-Yugoslavia

http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/What_countries_were_involved_in_World_War_2

So I often wonder what happened to the rest from WWII 

They must have had " P A T R I O T I S M " and an attitude with true grit once before.  Guess it is the new generation.

[Le_Murphant]

Those aren't just thoughts, they're facts! As we all know , there can be no world peace, at least not for a long while.

Umm, sorry, I disagree. Could you back that up with arguments, not examples? I cannot prove that world peace is possible (although I have examples that make me think it could be) but I feel it, and I will continue to do so until proven otherwise.

"Hell, who knows. It must be more of an American and Ally thing."

Hi Tommie .more than  just a Ally thing in my view, both our countries have show compasion to all other nations, and tried to uphold world Peace without prejudice ,  but now we are being cast as the villains, so can anybody show me a better way forward , I am receptive to all suggestions on the way to secure world peace ,  saying look the other way and ignore the problems doesn't work , it was tried in pre 1939 , and lead to the worlds darkest hour, It was only Britain and America that pulled us all back for the darkness that was cast over the world, 

just my thoughts on this

I must admit that your post made me rethink my anti-war position. When the invasions of Afghanistan and Irak started, I was opposed to them because I believed, like a French politician whose name I forget, that "war is failure" to go with diplomatic ways. Now, in retrospective, Irak is probably better off without Saddam, and Afghanistan without the talibans. What bugs me is that the US "mysteriously" attacked countries which had good amounts of oil and that the reconstruction of these countries again "mysteriously" got attributed to friends of the government (Lockheed-martin, etc.). So I'm not so sure about the "without prejudice". Just remember that the US entered WWII only after they got attacked at Pearl Harbour. It gave a reason for which the american public would agree to send their boys. I can't recall any war that the US has waged only for the purpose of international peace, a war in which its interests were not involved. Now I agree that the US, as well as all the other countries included in the allies posted by tommie, did the right thing when they attacked the Nazi regime. I might even admit that they did the right thing by attacking Irak, but for the wrong reasons. Does anyone even still believe that Irak ever had WMDs? Most likely the government needed a pretext to attack, and homeland security proved to be quite efficient, until it was discovered there were no WMDs. The reason that you are being cast as villains are your motives imo. The use of the words "axis of evil", for example, vaguely reminds me of totalitarian regimes. The US should realize that they are not some kind of righteous hand of god, but a country among others which often have different values. I agree that regimes who perpetrate human rights violations daily should be stopped, but then again I think of the US who tortures prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, and I find it a bit ironic that the US wants to "free the people of Irak" but in parallel tortures some of them. But that, really, is just a thought of mine.